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Old 01-01-2018, 07:05 AM
 
2,487 posts, read 417,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
You need to know old Aramaic to answer your question.
Or, whatever original language Tora and Old testament were written in.
ELOHIM is plural for gods. And, in its original source, there was no concept of Trinity, so it was literally - MANY gods.
Up to about the time of Moses, Jews believed into plural gods. Remember the story of them raising a statue of golden calf - that was for god Baal, who they then believed led them from Egypt. At that time, there was multitude of lesser and higher gods. Baal was one of the main deities but, above him, was god EL. ELOHIM is plural for EL. Elohim, as plural, is in the Bible 2400 times.
It is also said, in the Bible, that YHWH will be present in front of the court of GODS. There are multiple passages in Bible referring to multiple gods and, do not forget one thing. THERE WAS NO CONCEPT OF TRINITY IN OLD TESTAMENT. So if someone tells you that - Oh, it says gods in Genesis one because it is referring to Trinity - this is bunk, as, there was no Trinity then. Old Testament and Tora are literally identical, with OT stemming from Tora, and ask any Rabi - Jews do not believe in Trinity hence, there was no "three in one" god in OT and in Genesis one. There were godS.
Moses, after his appointment with YHWH, did his best to dismantle that belief into multiple gods. From that on, monoteism became dominant amongst sons of Abraham and old gods were forgotten or rooted out. Go to Encyclopedia Judeica and look up word ELOHIM. They do clearly admit that it is multitude, plural and can't even provide a REASONABLE explanation how PLURAL is referred to single. Just give some blah blah about it being plural out of respect. Right.
You are absolutely correct, but most evangelicals surprisingly turn away from their literalism when presented with these facts.`

 
Old 01-01-2018, 07:08 AM
 
2,487 posts, read 417,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Geez if you are going spout this internet drivel at least get a few facts straight. The OT was written in Hebrew. Aramaic is what was used in the time of Jesus. The first five books is called the Torah. Not that word from the movie Tora, Tora, Tora. And third point is the word for teacher is Rabbi, not Rabi. Basically your entire post is a fail on numerous levels.

In a court of law with this many mistakes you would be found to be incredible as opposed to credible. Meaning what you say is not to be believed
Most of Daniel and Ezra were written in Aramaic, as well as some of Jeremiah. If you are going to castigate someone, at least get YOUR facts right. You do mention that thing about credibility you know.
 
Old 01-01-2018, 09:36 AM
 
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ELOHIM 2500 times in the Bible.In Hebrew Bible, in creation of the world, god is addressed as ELOHIM, or gods. Later, was replaced for EL, or ELOAH, singular for god.
Psalm 81;1 says:
God stood in the court of GODS; among GODS he spoke judgment.
In Hebrew Bible that is:
ELOHIM nitzav baadat EL.
Translation: GODS stood in the gathering of EL.
God EL is the head god of the Canaan pantheon of gods.
דְּבָרִים
Deuteronomium
Chapter 32:8 says: When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
“number of the children of Israe”l originally was written as “number of angels of god’
Khumran scrolls have same passage as “the sons of ELOHIM”, or the sons of gods.
“the most High” originally was spelled as “el yone”, which is name of god EL again. Hence,
: When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Was originally as :
: When the EL YONE divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the SONS OG GOD.
Hence, EL gave peoples to his sons, gods.
Deutoronomy 32:9 says;
For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance
Where “lord” is YHWH who received son’s of Jacob as his inheritance. While the OTHER people were inherited by other gods.
According to Midrash, Abraham looked into the sunset and realized that everything is god. That god told him to move to the promised land.
Araham on his way to the promised land met Melchisedec, bowed to him, accepted his superiority and paid him 10% of his wealth.
Melchisedec was the head priest of city SALIM, which by some is considered to be later known as Yershalaim, or Jeru-salem. Traditionally, cities were named in those times by the name of their founder, in this case – god SALIM, SHALAIM, SALEM. Hence, before YHWH, city was honoring god Salim.
Hence, initially, Abraham bowed to god Salim.
Salim was son of god EL, who had 70 sons.
Salim had brother Shakh’ar. Shakh’ar was god of sunrise and Salim was god of sunset.
Recall “Abraham looked into the sunset”. Be it also noted that Yeshua (Jesus) was also born at the sunset, when the fist star appeared.
Jesus used to go and pray on the ELEON mountain, which is mountain of the god EL.
YHWH is actually not a name. YHWH is acronym for “ I am the one who exists”, or living god.
After meeting with Moses, YHWH-SALIM keeps indoctrinating Jews that “I am the god above ALL GODS” “the most powerful god” and, if there were only one god, then why to claim superiority above other gods? This simply admits that “gods” existed in multitude and one god was working his way up the hierarchy by means various.
In Isaiah 14:12 is written:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Lecifer, in Latin, means “carrying light”
In Hebrew, that passage says “haylale bane shakh’ar” what means “and you, son of Shakha’ar” what refers to god Shakh’ar and his son Haylale
 
Old 01-01-2018, 10:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
Most of Daniel and Ezra were written in Aramaic, as well as some of Jeremiah. If you are going to castigate someone, at least get YOUR facts right. You do mention that thing about credibility you know.
For Daniel, that's true, but only slightly. Daniel has 12 chapters and a total of 357 verses. According to John F. Walvoord in his commentary/book on Daniel, called 'Daniel,' p. 17., Daniel 2:4 to 7:28 is written in Aramaic. The rest is written in Hebrew. I counted the total number of verses in Daniel. 200 verses are in Aramaic and 157 verses are in Hebrew. So there are 43 more verses in Aramaic than in Hebrew.

However, most of Ezra is written in Hebrew. Ezra has 10 chapters. Only Ezra 4:8 to 6:18 and 7:12-26 is written in Aramaic.

In Jeremiah, again according to John F. Walvoord, only one verse, verse 10:11 is in Aramaic.

Genesis 31:47 has two words of the compound name Jegar-sahadutha which are in Aramaic.
 
Old 01-01-2018, 10:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
For Daniel, that's true, but only slightly. Daniel has 12 chapters and a total of 357 verses. According to John F. Walvoord in his commentary/book on Daniel, called 'Daniel,' p. 17., Daniel 2:4 to 7:28 is written in Aramaic. The rest is written in Hebrew. I counted the total number of verses in Daniel. 200 verses are in Aramaic and 157 verses are in Hebrew. So there are 43 more verses in Aramaic than in Hebrew.

However, most of Ezra is written in Hebrew. Ezra has 10 chapters. Only Ezra 4:8 to 6:18 and 7:12-26 is written in Aramaic.

In Jeremiah, again according to John F. Walvoord, only one verse, verse 10:11 is in Aramaic.

Genesis 31:47 has two words of the compound name Jegar-sahadutha which are in Aramaic.
All which confirms what?

That the OT at least had gone through significant editorial changes and additions. Hardly the word of an infallible supernatural being, is it?
 
Old 01-01-2018, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
All which confirms what?

That the OT at least had gone through significant editorial changes and additions. Hardly the word of an infallible supernatural being, is it?
I was simply correcting you. While you correctly stated that more of Daniel (barely) was written in Aramaic, you were incorrect about Ezra being written mostly in Aramaic. It was written mostly in Hebrew.
 
Old 01-01-2018, 12:16 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
how many gods exist in the christian religion?
3
 
Old 01-01-2018, 12:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
3
You disregard the definition of the Trinity according to the Christian faith which is that one God exists in three persons in contrast with the doctrine of Tritheism which is that the trinity consists of three different gods.
Tritheism: Tritheism is the belief in three distinct gods and stands in contrast to Trinitarianism.

https://www.theopedia.com/tritheism


Trinitarianism: The Trinity is the Christian doctrine that deals with and describes the nature of God. The doctrine asserts the following:

There is one and only one God.
God eternally exists in three distinct persons.
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, etc.

https://www.theopedia.com/trinity
If you are going to presume to speak for Christianity then you should adhere to established Christian definitions.
 
Old 01-01-2018, 12:39 PM
 
Location: US
25,976 posts, read 13,723,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike555 View Post
you disregard the definition of the trinity according to the christian faith which is that one god exists in three persons in contrast with the doctrine of tritheism which is that the trinity consists of three different gods.
tritheism: tritheism is the belief in three distinct gods and stands in contrast to trinitarianism.

https://www.theopedia.com/tritheism


trinitarianism: the trinity is the christian doctrine that deals with and describes the nature of god. The doctrine asserts the following:

There is one and only one god.
God eternally exists in three distinct persons.
The father is god, the son is god, and the holy spirit is god.
The father is not the son, the son is not the father, the father is not the spirit, etc.

https://www.theopedia.com/trinity
if you are going to presume to speak for christianity then you should adhere to established christian definitions.
7
 
Old 01-01-2018, 01:37 PM
 
2,487 posts, read 417,690 times
Reputation: 1479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I was simply correcting you. While you correctly stated that more of Daniel (barely) was written in Aramaic, you were incorrect about Ezra being written mostly in Aramaic. It was written mostly in Hebrew.

And I was pointing out the claim that Aramaic was not used in the OT was incorrect, and secondly, that clearly there are editorial changes/additions made to a book that is suppose to be 'infallible word of God'.
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