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Old 01-05-2018, 02:56 PM
 
2,888 posts, read 592,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Actually, yes. The Holy Spirit is God. He is a "person", in that he has a will, he can act, he can have desires. He can be lied to. He does things and is described in ways a person is described.

But there is ONLY 1 God, and He has said he won't share his glory with others. So the only logical conclusion is the 3 persons in one God.
That makes God in God.

The more Christians try to explain trinity the more complicated they make it.

Holy Spirit is not God because only God is worshiped. Holy Spirit is not worshiped.
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:14 PM
Status: "I'm back." (set 17 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That makes God in God.

The more Christians try to explain trinity the more complicated they make it.

Holy Spirit is not God because only God is worshiped. Holy Spirit is not worshiped.
Actually, yes---the Holy Spirit is worshiped. When we worship God, we are worshiping the Triune God. They are 3 in 1. Not separate Gods, not "parts" of God...but they are all 3 God, and there is only 1 God.

Here's a good article: https://www.gotquestions.org/worship-Holy-Spirit.html
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Upstate New York
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Whatever you believe about the Trinity, make sure you donít say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son if youíre in an Eastern Orthodox Church.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Whatever you believe about the Trinity, make sure you donít say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son if youíre in an Eastern Orthodox Church.
Why isn't that possible if they (three persons) are together as One and the holy spirit can proceed from the Father but not from the Son? Doesn't that mean that they are not co-equal?
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:41 PM
 
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Like I said - we are right off to Holy Trinity. Both as confusion and as excuse to discuss why plural for gods is in bible 2500 times.
Again, concept of Trinity was unknown in OT. Nor, really, in the gospels, alleged to Jesus or his disciples.

The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Hence, El-o-him as plural god, as trinity, could not be in OT and NT. Period. Skip this excuse.


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Old 01-07-2018, 09:41 AM
 
18,513 posts, read 14,216,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Like I said - we are right off to Holy Trinity. Both as confusion and as excuse to discuss why plural for gods is in bible 2500 times.
Again, concept of Trinity was unknown in OT. Nor, really, in the gospels, alleged to Jesus or his disciples.

The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Hence, El-o-him as plural god, as trinity, could not be in OT and NT. Period. Skip this excuse.

The Bible is progressive in its revelation. While the Old Testament doesn't provide a clear trinitarian picture of Yahweh, it does present a Binitarian view. Prior to the second century A.D. there was within Judaism a belief among some Jews, based upon their own Scriptures, a 'two powers in heaven' concept. I already explained this in post #5 of this thread.

As for the issue of Trinitarianism, the New Testament writers didn't have a term in Greek to describe it. But the fact that the New Testament clearly and undeniably (for those who are intellectually honest) states that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God as is the Father, paints a trinitarian ''concept''. That is, that there are three who are said to be God. The Latin word 'trinitas 'eventually was used to describe the fact of the New Testament's picture of three who are called God.

One early church father arguing that Jesus is God was Justin Martyr (AD. circa 100-165). In his Dialogue with Trypho he argues that Jesus is God from the Old Testament. For instance, in chapter LVI (56) Justin refers to Genesis 19:34.
Genesis 19:34 Then the LORD (Yhvh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yhvh) out of heaven,
Quoting Justin;
CHAPTER LVI -- GOD WHO APPEARED TO MOSES IS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD THE FATHER.

And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when[the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came[to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who[remains] in the heavens, i.e.,the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the[judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms:'The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.' "

Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)
Genesis 19:24 is one of those Old Testament scriptures that led to the 'Two Powers in heaven' belief within Judaism that later (in the second century AD) was declared a heresy by the Jews.

Other chapter headings in Justin's Dialogue with Trypho are;

CHAPTER LIX -- GOD DISTINCT FROM THE FATHER CONVERSED WITH MOSES.

CHAPTER LXIII -- IT IS PROVED THAT THIS GOD WAS INCARNATE.


The point here is that within the early church, long before the third century, it was being asserted that Jesus was God. And of course, to say it again, the New Testament itself states that Jesus is God, and that is where the early church took its belief from.


And lest anyone forget, or didn't read post #5, I clearly stated that the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament states that while there is only one Yahweh, though presented in a Binitarian manner [more than one personage], there are many elohim. See post #5 for the details.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:03 PM
 
2,888 posts, read 592,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Bible is progressive in its revelation. While the Old Testament doesn't provide a clear trinitarian picture of Yahweh, it does present a Binitarian view. Prior to the second century A.D. there was within Judaism a belief among some Jews, based upon their own Scriptures, a 'two powers in heaven' concept. I already explained this in post #5 of this thread.

As for the issue of Trinitarianism, the New Testament writers didn't have a term in Greek to describe it. But the fact that the New Testament clearly and undeniably (for those who are intellectually honest) states that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God as is the Father, paints a trinitarian ''concept''. That is, that there are three who are said to be God. The Latin word 'trinitas 'eventually was used to describe the fact of the New Testament's picture of three who are called God.

One early church father arguing that Jesus is God was Justin Martyr (AD. circa 100-165). In his Dialogue with Trypho he argues that Jesus is God from the Old Testament. For instance, in chapter LVI (56) Justin refers to Genesis 19:34.
Genesis 19:34 Then the LORD (Yhvh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yhvh) out of heaven,
Quoting Justin;
CHAPTER LVI -- GOD WHO APPEARED TO MOSES IS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD THE FATHER.

And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when[the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came[to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who[remains] in the heavens, i.e.,the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the[judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms:'The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.' "

Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)
Genesis 19:24 is one of those Old Testament scriptures that led to the 'Two Powers in heaven' belief within Judaism that later (in the second century AD) was declared a heresy by the Jews.

Other chapter headings in Justin's Dialogue with Trypho are;

CHAPTER LIX -- GOD DISTINCT FROM THE FATHER CONVERSED WITH MOSES.

CHAPTER LXIII -- IT IS PROVED THAT THIS GOD WAS INCARNATE.


The point here is that within the early church, long before the third century, it was being asserted that Jesus was God. And of course, to say it again, the New Testament itself states that Jesus is God, and that is where the early church took its belief from.


And lest anyone forget, or didn't read post #5, I clearly stated that the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament states that while there is only one Yahweh, though presented in a Binitarian manner [more than one personage], there are many elohim. See post #5 for the details.
Jesus can never be God for two main reasons:

(1) God does not die. Jesus died.

(2) God knows everything. Jesus did not know everything.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:55 PM
 
18,513 posts, read 14,216,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Jesus can never be God for two main reasons:

(1) God does not die. Jesus died.

(2) God knows everything. Jesus did not know everything.
One reason (among others) that one of the persons of the Godhead had to become man is because God can't die. Therefore the second person of the Trinity became man so that he could go to the cross and die for the sins of the world. Jesus has eternally existed as God, but when He entered into the world through the virgin conception and birth He also became true humanity. And from that moment onward Jesus is both truly God and true humanity in one person. Theologically this is known as the doctrine of the hypostatic union of Jesus.

As is seen in John 1:1 compared with John 1:14, and in Philippians 2:5-8 Jesus existed as God and became flesh.

During his first advent Jesus refrained from using his deity independently of the Father's will for him during his first advent. This is known theologically as the kenosis of Jesus. Jesus didn't give up his deity as a man, he simply chose not to access that part of his person except at certain times. This is why during his first advent Jesus could be ignorant of things and had to learn as any other person did. But when Jesus did choose to exercise his deity could certainly do so.

While you claim, on the basis of your own reasoning that Jesus can't be God, the writers of the New Testament expressly stated that he is God. And Jesus himself is recorded as having claimed to be God. Now, if you don't believe the Biblical writers declaration that Jesus is God, that's your choice, but then why believe anything else the Biblical writers say about him and what he taught, and about Christianity? Where else other than the Bible do we learn anything at all about Jesus?
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Adios to Colorado
1,638 posts, read 550,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Jesus can never be God for two main reasons:

(1) God does not die. Jesus died.
No. Only Jesus' mortal and human body died. Jesus's/God's spirt and essence never did, and never will.

(2) God knows everything. Jesus did not know everything.
Jesus did know everything, because he/God were and are one. That's clear throughout the Gospels and New Testament. Based on what scripture do you prove that he "didn't know everything"?
Comments in purple
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
8,836 posts, read 6,919,210 times
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Well, there's at least a pre-destination God (Calvinism), there's an "Ariminian I" God (modified pre-destination, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist style) and then there's the Ariminian II "free will" God (Unitarians-Universalists). I'm not sure where the Mormon concept of God fits in, since anyone can be a Saint through baptism (I think).

Others?
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