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Old 12-31-2017, 05:08 PM
 
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How many Gods exist in the Christian religion?
1? 2? 3?
If more than one then why not many?

People will probably say that there are three but the three are one.
If so then why not many and the many are one?
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:15 PM
 
8,984 posts, read 11,908,479 times
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You need to know old Aramaic to answer your question.
Or, whatever original language Tora and Old testament were written in.
ELOHIM is plural for gods. And, in its original source, there was no concept of Trinity, so it was literally - MANY gods.
Up to about the time of Moses, Jews believed into plural gods. Remember the story of them raising a statue of golden calf - that was for god Baal, who they then believed led them from Egypt. At that time, there was multitude of lesser and higher gods. Baal was one of the main deities but, above him, was god EL. ELOHIM is plural for EL. Elohim, as plural, is in the Bible 2400 times.
It is also said, in the Bible, that YHWH will be present in front of the court of GODS. There are multiple passages in Bible referring to multiple gods and, do not forget one thing. THERE WAS NO CONCEPT OF TRINITY IN OLD TESTAMENT. So if someone tells you that - Oh, it says gods in Genesis one because it is referring to Trinity - this is bunk, as, there was no Trinity then. Old Testament and Tora are literally identical, with OT stemming from Tora, and ask any Rabi - Jews do not believe in Trinity hence, there was no "three in one" god in OT and in Genesis one. There were godS.
Moses, after his appointment with YHWH, did his best to dismantle that belief into multiple gods. From that on, monoteism became dominant amongst sons of Abraham and old gods were forgotten or rooted out. Go to Encyclopedia Judeica and look up word ELOHIM. They do clearly admit that it is multitude, plural and can't even provide a REASONABLE explanation how PLURAL is referred to single. Just give some blah blah about it being plural out of respect. Right.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Adios to Colorado
1,625 posts, read 541,044 times
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God is one in totality, but consisting of three personalities, so to speak. Three ways that God can show himself to us: as 1) the Father, 2) the son (Jesus), and 3) the Holy Spirit.

Symbolically, think of one box labelled "God", divided into three sections (father, son, holy spirit). All three make up the totality that is God.

Personally, that's one of the things I enjoy about God. He makes us think a bit different, as in a different dimension. He has unique twists that get us to think outside of the box; outside of the often humdrum, boring, standard-old way that humans think. God is complex, and fascinating.

God is spiritual - as a spiritual essence and life form. He's not religious. Religion is man's way to (feebly) attempt to define and handle God. Religion is about human ways (rules, regulations), and human acts (public prayer and singing), and human structures (church buildings).

Religion isn't necessary to God. He doesn't need any of that. He only needs the purely spiritual connection and communication between him and us. That's where religion becomes a problem, getting between him and us, and confusing the communication he wants directly. Human ways are more familiar to us, so we inevitably tend to get sidetracked by the more familiar human aspects (i.e. religion), than his "quiet voice". Americans in particular are familiar with a loud sort of existence and communication. In the growing and rising noise of life in our country, we are becoming increasingly poor and ineffectual at hearing his voice. He's not going to shout at us, so we only have ourselves to blame. And in the end, we lose, not him.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 12-31-2017 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,093 posts, read 7,467,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
You need to know old Aramaic to answer your question.
Or, whatever original language Tora and Old testament were written in.
ELOHIM is plural for gods. And, in its original source, there was no concept of Trinity, so it was literally - MANY gods.
Up to about the time of Moses, Jews believed into plural gods. Remember the story of them raising a statue of golden calf - that was for god Baal, who they then believed led them from Egypt. At that time, there was multitude of lesser and higher gods. Baal was one of the main deities but, above him, was god EL. ELOHIM is plural for EL. Elohim, as plural, is in the Bible 2400 times.
It is also said, in the Bible, that YHWH will be present in front of the court of GODS. There are multiple passages in Bible referring to multiple gods and, do not forget one thing. THERE WAS NO CONCEPT OF TRINITY IN OLD TESTAMENT. So if someone tells you that - Oh, it says gods in Genesis one because it is referring to Trinity - this is bunk, as, there was no Trinity then. Old Testament and Tora are literally identical, with OT stemming from Tora, and ask any Rabi - Jews do not believe in Trinity hence, there was no "three in one" god in OT and in Genesis one. There were godS.
Moses, after his appointment with YHWH, did his best to dismantle that belief into multiple gods. From that on, monoteism became dominant amongst sons of Abraham and old gods were forgotten or rooted out. Go to Encyclopedia Judeica and look up word ELOHIM. They do clearly admit that it is multitude, plural and can't even provide a REASONABLE explanation how PLURAL is referred to single. Just give some blah blah about it being plural out of respect. Right.
Geez if you are going spout this internet drivel at least get a few facts straight. The OT was written in Hebrew. Aramaic is what was used in the time of Jesus. The first five books is called the Torah. Not that word from the movie Tora, Tora, Tora. And third point is the word for teacher is Rabbi, not Rabi. Basically your entire post is a fail on numerous levels.

In a court of law with this many mistakes you would be found to be incredible as opposed to credible. Meaning what you say is not to be believed
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:40 PM
 
18,485 posts, read 14,193,584 times
Reputation: 6186
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
How many Gods exist in the Christian religion?
1? 2? 3?
If more than one then why not many?

People will probably say that there are three but the three are one.
If so then why not many and the many are one?
Perhaps a better way to frame that question is to ask whether the Bible speaks of more than one elohim. In Hebrew the word is elohim. And in fact the Bible with reference to the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible speaks of many elohim. While there is but one Yahweh who Himself is an elohim, no other elohim is Yahweh. Yahweh is as Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser puts it 'species unique.' He is in a class by himself. According to the Bible Yah-weh created all the other elohim. And who are these other elohim?

1.) Deuteronomy 32:17 refers to demons (shedim) as elohim.


2.) The members of Yahweh's divine counsel (basically, angels or other spirit beings) are called elohim in Psalm 82:1,6.
[English Standard Version] Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 6] I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
The Tanach obscures Psalm 82:1,6 by translating the verses in the following manner.
Psalm 82:1 A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge. . . . 6] I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."
Instead of translating elohim as 'gods' it refers to them as 'judges' and 'angelic creatures', which they are, but again, the word is elohim and should be translated as 'gods.'


However, both the Dead Sea scrolls and the Septuagint render the verses more accurately.
[Septuagint] Psalm 82:1 [A Psalm for Asaph.] God stands in the assembly of gods; and in the midst [of them] will judge gods. . . 6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all [of you] children of the Most High.
[DSS] Psalm 82 A Psal[m] of Asaph. 1. God takes his stand in the divine council; he holds judgment among the gods. . . 6] I say, ''You are gods; you are all children of the Most High.
As well, many English translations obscure Psalm 82:1,6 by referring to the elohim in Psalm 82:1,6 as judges, heavenly beings, rulers, angels.


3.) The spirit of the dead prophet Samuel is called an elohim in 1 Samuel 28:13.


4.) The gods and goddesses of other nations (which the Bible regards as having actual existence since they are in reality the demons referred to elsewhere) are called elohim in Judges 11:24 and 1 Kings 11:33.

Each of the categories are referred to as elohim - gods.


Now as for Yahweh, while the Old Testament doesn't give a clear trinitarian picture of Yahweh, it does hint at it. However, the Old Testament does provide a strong Binitarian view of Yahweh. The Jewish rabbis' referred to it as 'two powers in heaven' or 'two Yahwehs' based on certain Old Testament passages. By the second century AD this two powers in heaven view was declared a heresy. But prior to that time there were Jews who accepted this view as valid based on certain scriptures such as Genesis 19:24 which speaks of Yahweh raining down fire from Yahweh out of heaven. Two Yahwehs.
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD Yhvh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yhvh) out of heaven,
And Amos 4:11 in which God (Yahweh) is speaking but also speaks of God in the third person. There is both a first person and third person aspect to this verse.
[Tanach] Amos 4:11 I (God; first person) have overthrown some of you like God's (God; third person) overthrow of Sodom and Gemorrah, and you were like a brand plucked from burning, but you have not returned to Me, says the Lord (God; first person).

[Septuagint] Amos 4:11 I (God; first person) overthrew you, as God (God; third person) overthrew Sodoma and Gomorrha, and ye became as a brand plucked out of the fire: yet not even thus did ye return to me, saith the Lord (God;first person).

[Septuagint in the Greek] Amos 4:11 κατέστρεψα (I overthrew) ὑμᾶς (you), καθὼς (just as) κατέστρεψεν (he overthrew) ὁ Θεὸς (God) Σόδομα καὶ Γόμορρα, καὶ ἐγένεσθε ὡς δαλὸς ἐξεσπασμένος ἐκ πυρός· καὶ οὐδ᾿ ὧς ἐπεστρέψατε πρός με, λέγει Κύριος.
Those are just two examples of Old Testament verses which speak of Yahweh being more than one persona, but still one Yahweh. And that is binitarianism.

The late Alan F. Segal, a Jew, wrote a book called 'Two Powers in Heaven' in which he, being a Jew, regards as a heresy the two powers in Heaven belief that some Jews held in ancient times based upon their own scriptures.

Michael Heiser, who I mentioned above has given a number of lectures on 'Two Powers in Heaven' which are available on YouTube. Here is one such lecture.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyMWOncC_hw


So, how many 'gods' exist according to the Bible? Well, elohim seems to be a term for any being existing in the spirit realm. While there is only one Yahweh who even in the Old Testament is presented in certain passages in a way that suggests that he is more than one personage (binitarianism), there are many elohim.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-31-2017 at 09:50 PM..
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:03 PM
 
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El-o-hym means all-human. Any being that is all human is an Elohim
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:22 PM
 
18,485 posts, read 14,193,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
El-o-hym means all-human. Any being that is all human is an Elohim
Oh, good grief. I go to the trouble of posting what I did, and this is the kind of nonsense reply I get.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:50 PM
 
2,316 posts, read 1,147,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Oh, good grief. I go to the trouble of posting what I did, and this is the kind of nonsense reply I get.
Is that what you think I'm thinking about you? No not really. I pretty much expect crap from you guys
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:37 AM
 
2,924 posts, read 911,288 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
God is one in totality, but consisting of three personalities, so to speak. Three ways that God can show himself to us: as 1) the Father, 2) the son (Jesus), and 3) the Holy Spirit.

Symbolically, think of one box labelled "God", divided into three sections (father, son, holy spirit). All three make up the totality that is God.

Personally, that's one of the things I enjoy about God. He makes us think a bit different, as in a different dimension. He has unique twists that get us to think outside of the box; outside of the often humdrum, boring, standard-old way that humans think. God is complex, and fascinating.

God is spiritual - as a spiritual essence and life form. He's not religious. Religion is man's way to (feebly) attempt to define and handle God. Religion is about human ways (rules, regulations), and human acts (public prayer and singing), and human structures (church buildings).

Religion isn't necessary to God. He doesn't need any of that. He only needs the purely spiritual connection and communication between him and us. That's where religion becomes a problem, getting between him and us, and confusing the communication he wants directly. Human ways are more familiar to us, so we inevitably tend to get sidetracked by the more familiar human aspects (i.e. religion), than his "quiet voice". Americans in particular are familiar with a loud sort of existence and communication. In the growing and rising noise of life in our country, we are becoming increasingly poor and ineffectual at hearing his voice. He's not going to shout at us, so we only have ourselves to blame. And in the end, we lose, not him.
But then this philosophy raises two questions.

1 - Why God did not show his two other sub-boxes (Son and Holy Spirit) within the main box to the mankind before the arrival of Jesus?

2 - And when we analyze Christianity's fundamental belief that "Jesus is THE ONLY WAY" - then the we reach to the conclusion that the entire mankind before Jesus is in hell, including Moses and Abraham?
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:10 AM
 
2,924 posts, read 911,288 times
Reputation: 750
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
How many Gods exist in the Christian religion?
1? 2? 3?
If more than one then why not many?

People will probably say that there are three but the three are one.
If so then why not many and the many are one?
Depends on which definition of God do you believe in?

From the Islamic (and I guess from the Jewish too) point of view, an entity that claims to be God must meet certain qualities and attributes.
And one of the attributes is, it MUST be one with no partners and no offsprings or parents.
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