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Old 01-03-2018, 09:23 PM
 
31,556 posts, read 7,274,421 times
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True dat You never know what to value until you lose it. On the other hand, it is a valuable lesson to learn not to fret and mourn something when it is gone.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Frankly, this is just too complicated to even worry about, and I am being deadly serious. I mean what difference in my daily life, or yours, would it make if I made choices based on a belief in free will or believed these choices were pre-determined? I still have to make choices.
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Old 01-04-2018, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,026 posts, read 8,054,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
Frankly, this is just too complicated to even worry about, and I am being deadly serious. I mean what difference in my daily life, or yours, would it make if I made choices based on a belief in free will or believed these choices were pre-determined? I still have to make choices.
Yup. Most people conflate free will and freedom of choice. At the end of the day we all (appear to) have choices and are forced to (appear to) make them -- how that plays out philosophically isn't a very practical consideration.

The way I usually put it is that we have the freedom to choose from a limited (in absolute terms) but yet consequential menu of possibilities. Sometimes nothing on the menu tastes good. Sometimes it's a more extensive and appealing menu. And more often than not the connection between effort and outcomes is flaky at best.

But ... if there really were no choice then one should be able to to be 100% passive and make no choices at all and that always ends badly. So clearly -- there is meaningful choice and we are obliged to make those choices, many of which are demonstrably consequential. Getting better at choosing is what consumes most of our time and energy in life. So if life is nondeterministic, to me it's kind of a useless philosophical navel-gazing sort of concept.

If life looks, smells, tastes and operates as if there were choice ... I don't much care about theoretical musings about how there isn't any.

It's very similar to how if my experienced reality is what one would expect if a conscious intentional benevolent potent agency were NOT in charge of things on my behalf or at least generally on behalf of the righteous and well-meaning, then I don't give a fig if there is some theological masturbation that would produce a view to the contrary.
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:50 PM
 
Location: China
2,356 posts, read 2,738,091 times
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There are lots of seriously religious folk who DO worry about it and spend a lot of effort in telling others how we have been benifcently given free will so that we can make choices. I was trying to argue that maybe there is no such free will and whatever outcome was going to happen, happens regardless of the choices we make as we progress along life's path.

Asking for help for immediate crises from some mega-being seems to have no effect either, irrespective of what we have been told. So, whats the point and what is the benefit since when these perceived advantages are no longer part of the deal, there may not be any benefit to being in the club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
I'll add something else.
You know why a disease is educational? Because suddenly it makes you realize value of things you never valued before. Air you can breathe. Food you can it. Even able to walk into shower room of dispose of waste in your body. Bird song. Sunrise. Family. friends. LIFE. All those things we took for granted and never appreciated.
So... what happens if we do not ask for material things like health, riches, relationships, etc but ask for spiritual abilities, characteristics and gifts which are supposed to make us better more perfected spiritual beings? It seems these dont exactly happen either.

There are probably plenty of priests who have earnestly asked God to stop them lusting after kids only for them to continue to do that. So even if another priest or bishop asks by praying with them, it carries no more weight with God. All this asking and praying, just makes people feel better.

I tend to think along the same lines as ukrkoz as I have noticed benefits come from being grateful for what we have and not so much asking for things we dont have or dont need. To me, it doesn't matter if there is free will or not, I see it as a perceived benefit touted by the sales people. Asking for help in a crisis is something I have just realised does not appear to happen and so in the future, I will probably change my thinking to incorporate that into my (strange) beliefs.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:17 PM
 
31,556 posts, read 7,274,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
Frankly, this is just too complicated to even worry about, and I am being deadly serious. I mean what difference in my daily life, or yours, would it make if I made choices based on a belief in free will or believed these choices were pre-determined? I still have to make choices.
You are quite right. It is confusing, complicated and not well understood. From the commonsense -daily -life point of view, just act as though we have free will choices, as that is what it looks like.

As to the working out (if possible) what it really gpoing on, leave it to the philosophers and scientists; philosophers to put the questions, and science to find the answers, if it can. And this area of what was once though to be metaphysics and outside the remit of science, is in fact very much coming into the area of science and not only can science be capable of trying to explain things such as the working of Free will, but may be (as is often the case) the only discipline that can do it. And the same may well apply with morality and ethics.

That's all fine. We can go about our daily life thinking that material is Solid and leaving it to science to know that it isn't. And if science says so, we may either ask how that works and understand the explanation or we can simply say 'wel, it makes no sense to me, but if that's what science says.."

And that's all ok. Until we get people who say 'Wel, obviously matter is solid", and dismiss science when it says otherwise, because science is always getting things wrong, isn't it?

And this becomes not only deliberate ignorance but becomes agenda driven denial when Religion wants to lay claim to Fre will as sonething that has a Theological eplanation and if science suggests something that doesn't suit it, then all heaven is in a rage, and millions of Republican Oil dollars are being poured into a media misinformation campaign to debunk science and have people believe that free will is a physical Law written by God and implanted in our bonces and cannot have an evolutionary origin or natural basis because it is Too Complicated and Nothing can come from Nothing, and in any case the Bible (or so they say) says so and that settles it.

The Free will debate is in fact about the feasbility and coherence of the Biblegod -character and how, it self inconsistent either cannot Truly Exist in that way or form, or does and is lying about itself. Or it's definition of Good, Morals and ethics is not at all what Humans think it is. And Free Will is nothing to do with a scientific study of Human social reasoning based on evolved instinctive preferences, but is about a Divine declaration that because we can choose to do one thing or another, that eans that ..as Lucy van Pelt pot it "Anything that happens, anywhere in the world, is somebody elses' fault".

It is a Religious trick to pass the buck, get god off the hook and make religion Right, Good and Blameless, no matter what it does, because that is man'f fault, not religions.

It need hardly be said that anything men do that is good, God (and thereby religion) collars the credit, because God made us that way, so any good we do is credit to the god - whichever one you believe in.

Well, you said it beforeIi did, and probably better, too
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
There are lots of seriously religious folk who DO worry about it and spend a lot of effort in telling others how we have been benifcently given free will so that we can make choices. I was trying to argue that maybe there is no such free will and whatever outcome was going to happen, happens regardless of the choices we make as we progress along life's path.

Asking for help for immediate crises from some mega-being seems to have no effect either, irrespective of what we have been told. So, whats the point and what is the benefit since when these perceived advantages are no longer part of the deal, there may not be any benefit to being in the club.

So... what happens if we do not ask for material things like health, riches, relationships, etc but ask for spiritual abilities, characteristics and gifts which are supposed to make us better more perfected spiritual beings? It seems these dont exactly happen either.

There are probably plenty of priests who have earnestly asked God to stop them lusting after kids only for them to continue to do that. So even if another priest or bishop asks by praying with them, it carries no more weight with God. All this asking and praying, just makes people feel better.

I tend to think along the same lines as ukrkoz as I have noticed benefits come from being grateful for what we have and not so much asking for things we dont have or dont need. To me, it doesn't matter if there is free will or not, I see it as a perceived benefit touted by the sales people. Asking for help in a crisis is something I have just realised does not appear to happen and so in the future, I will probably change my thinking to incorporate that into my (strange) beliefs.
So maybe time for an apropriate you tube. Or one not so much so...

Yep...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

I got sold that 5 minutes in when he said "I had oatmeal this morning because I Felt Like It." (so stick that in your pipe and smoke it dickface - you wanna make something of it? Sue me! So There!!) Great presentation.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-06-2018 at 12:53 PM..
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
10,828 posts, read 3,460,448 times
Reputation: 1070
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I think there are 2 issues here. One is Free Will, and the other is whether we are able to ask for and receive help, assistance when we desperately need it most.

First issue - Free Will.
--------------------------
Free Will is not something exclusive to any particular religion, right? So 'faith' has nothing to do with it.
As I understand it, Free Will is something all humans are born with and allow us to make decisions which are specific to us and what we choose to do in the moment.

However, from those people who maintain this Free Will exists, I would like some kind of evidence that it does actually exist, some examples, or experiences which show that we have some kind of choice in our lives. I just dont see it.

Second Issue - Ask and you will receive.
----------------------------------------
I was thinking the other day, whenever I have asked for or needed something to happen, some urgent intervention or when some disaster happens, we are taught(?) that we can ask for help and the help will be there. Well, where is it? I just dont see it anywhere either.

If anything, this makes me think our lives are directed and pre-ordained to be acted out in a way which we have absolutely no control over. Like a computer program as in The Matrix perhaps.

Now... some people may relate this issue with some aspect of Free Will, and others may not. However, I do not see any help being given when things are 'bad' for us, so maybe what we are 'taught' is just not true. Things happen to us when they are planned to happen and we have no influence on anything.

I have no doubt that someone is going to say that we cannot appreciate all the small details of how the Universe works and that our perception of 'bad' is not really 'bad' at all. Why then are we 'taught' that this intervention will happen if we ask?
You are taking the promises of Judaism and applying those promises to yourself, are you in Judaism? Do you keep the 7 feasts of Jesus? Do you love the law and do you keep Pentecost?


Christianity was created out of sheer hate for the Jews, and any Gentile who would follow Jesus in his 7 feast days, the church began killing everyone who had the Holy spirit of Shavuot, and it was the Holy spirit of Shavuot that gave you anything you asked of God, and this is extremely specific to Judaism, not today's Christianity. You are reading things written to Gentile converts of Judaism concerning the Jewish feasts and who God rains his spirit down upon. The first rain at Shavuot was designed to come, and then to go it's own way, and this is extremely obvious in that the spirit was shared from hand to hand, but this spirit was the gift to those who keep the feasts of Jesus and very specific to the Pentecost which is the Passover Atzeret where the gifts are given. The church began killing anyone who kept Jewish feasts, and thereby making sure that nobody received the gift of Pentecost because nobody accepted Pentecost anymore. The church made sure that no Gentile was being added to the nation of Israel by outlawing the ways of God.


Do you want to be able to lay your hands on a dying child to obtain a miracle healing?


Then you should be doing what the first disciples did in order to receive the promised rain. There IS a promised rain and supposedly, it is designed to come 2000 years after the first rain, and this rain would complete a 6000 year plan. It could happen this year, next year, or the next ten years but I do expect it to happen. The rain of Shemini Atzeret is promised to be a double portion being twice the power that the first disciples received, but you have to be preparing and praying for this rain in order to receive it, and this is the greatest gift ever offered. If you do not receive the Holy spirit of rain in the second season of Christ for the fall Holy days, THERE IS NO OBTAINING IT, IT WILL NOT BE SHARED AS THE FIRST WAS SHARED.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:57 PM
 
Location: China
2,356 posts, read 2,738,091 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
You are taking the promises of Judaism and applying those promises to yourself, are you in Judaism? Do you keep the 7 feasts of Jesus? Do you love the law and do you keep Pentecost?
Well, thanks for asking, but ... Nope. I dont do any of these things.

But I also dont believe in future benefits promised (or threatened either). From my point of view, if it isn't here now after all this time, then it isn't coming and telling me it is, is a control mechanism which I am not buying into.
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
10,828 posts, read 3,460,448 times
Reputation: 1070
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Well, thanks for asking, but ... Nope. I dont do any of these things.

But I also dont believe in future benefits promised (or threatened either). From my point of view, if it isn't here now after all this time, then it isn't coming and telling me it is, is a control mechanism which I am not buying into.
I really like this post, it is so tempting, makes me want to flirt, I mean, not in a sexual way.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Boston
2,971 posts, read 914,241 times
Reputation: 5082
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I think there are 2 issues here. One is Free Will, and the other is whether we are able to ask for and receive help, assistance when we desperately need it most.

First issue - Free Will.
--------------------------
Free Will is not something exclusive to any particular religion, right? So 'faith' has nothing to do with it.
As I understand it, Free Will is something all humans are born with and allow us to make decisions which are specific to us and what we choose to do in the moment.

However, from those people who maintain this Free Will exists, I would like some kind of evidence that it does actually exist, some examples, or experiences which show that we have some kind of choice in our lives. I just dont see it.

Second Issue - Ask and you will receive.
----------------------------------------
I was thinking the other day, whenever I have asked for or needed something to happen, some urgent intervention or when some disaster happens, we are taught(?) that we can ask for help and the help will be there. Well, where is it? I just dont see it anywhere either.

If anything, this makes me think our lives are directed and pre-ordained to be acted out in a way which we have absolutely no control over. Like a computer program as in The Matrix perhaps.

Now... some people may relate this issue with some aspect of Free Will, and others may not. However, I do not see any help being given when things are 'bad' for us, so maybe what we are 'taught' is just not true. Things happen to us when they are planned to happen and we have no influence on anything.

I have no doubt that someone is going to say that we cannot appreciate all the small details of how the Universe works and that our perception of 'bad' is not really 'bad' at all. Why then are we 'taught' that this intervention will happen if we ask?
Muslims believe they are slaves to god, a slave has no free will.

Disbelief in free will is self refuting.
You have the freedom to disbelieve.

Ask and you will recieve...if God agrees, it's not ask and get everything you want.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Boston
2,971 posts, read 914,241 times
Reputation: 5082
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
There are lots of seriously religious folk who DO worry about it and spend a lot of effort in telling others how we have been benifcently given free will so that we can make choices. I was trying to argue that maybe there is no such free will and whatever outcome was going to happen, happens regardless of the choices we make as we progress along life's path.

Asking for help for immediate crises from some mega-being seems to have no effect either, irrespective of what we have been told. So, whats the point and what is the benefit since when these perceived advantages are no longer part of the deal, there may not be any benefit to being in the club.

So... what happens if we do not ask for material things like health, riches, relationships, etc but ask for spiritual abilities, characteristics and gifts which are supposed to make us better more perfected spiritual beings? It seems these dont exactly happen either.

There are probably plenty of priests who have earnestly asked God to stop them lusting after kids only for them to continue to do that. So even if another priest or bishop asks by praying with them, it carries no more weight with God. All this asking and praying, just makes people feel better.

I tend to think along the same lines as ukrkoz as I have noticed benefits come from being grateful for what we have and not so much asking for things we dont have or dont need. To me, it doesn't matter if there is free will or not, I see it as a perceived benefit touted by the sales people. Asking for help in a crisis is something I have just realised does not appear to happen and so in the future, I will probably change my thinking to incorporate that into my (strange) beliefs.
In no uncertain terms I know you don't know what to ask for. How to ask for it and don't understand there are conditions.

I met many priests in AA who literally had no clue how to pray or approach God, when they learned they got free.
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