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Old 01-07-2018, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Boston
3,712 posts, read 1,257,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
True dat You never know what to value until you lose it. .
You actually BELIEVE that ?
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Old 01-07-2018, 04:18 PM
 
34,412 posts, read 8,855,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
You actually BELIEVE that ?
It's happened to me quite a lot. Why would I not believe it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
Muslims believe they are slaves to god, a slave has no free will.

Disbelief in free will is self refuting.
You have the freedom to disbelieve.

Ask and you will recieve...if God agrees, it's not ask and get everything you want.
No. You are confusing Free will with environmenntal anc conditional limiitations upon it. And it's not a disbelief in free will, it is trying to understand what it actually is and how it works.
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,231 posts, read 4,228,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It's happened to me quite a lot. Why would I not believe it?



No. You are confusing Free will with environmenntal anc conditional limiitations upon it. And it's not a disbelief in free will, it is trying to understand what it actually is and how it works.
If it is real, they had been working on that billion dollar contraption for ten years and they finally proved that we were not holograms who lived a million years ago but I am still the skeptic, are we really real Daddy?
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:38 AM
 
Location: PRC
2,705 posts, read 2,981,727 times
Reputation: 2454
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg
Muslims believe they are slaves to god, a slave has no free will.

Disbelief in free will is self refuting.
You have the freedom to disbelieve.

Ask and you will recieve...if God agrees, it's not ask and get everything you want.
But... dont you see the belief in God agreeing is also a conditional which you have placed apon it. You can make up 'rules' how this thing (Free Will) works according to your beliefs but they are still just your interpretation based on nothing but hearsay. If you get your request, then God agrees, if you dont then God doesn't agree. Can't you see how you are making it up to fit your beliefs?

The Universe must work in a particular way otherwise it would descend into chaos, so there must be 'rules' which are followed in order to keep things working smoothly and evolving.

Science already knows that everything is energy vibrating at different speeds so it must be we who are the receivers and perceivers of this energy. There is nothing actually "physical" or solid unless you are operating within the limited band of energy which is 'solid' to you. For us, thats our 3-D world. Anything or anyone outside of that band of energy sees/perceives that same energy as etherial and capable of moving through things which you perceive as solid.

Rather like the 1-D, 2-D story of the dot and pencil line. If you are a 2-D being, then that line is solid and you cannot climb over it. Reality is according to your position in the energetic hierarchy perhaps? Maybe Free Will is operating within the rules of how the Universe works, not whether some omnipotent being agrees with you that you need that something in your life?
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:14 AM
 
Location: USA
3,001 posts, read 1,044,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I think there are 2 issues here. One is Free Will, and the other is whether we are able to ask for and receive help, assistance when we desperately need it most.

First issue - Free Will.
--------------------------
Free Will is not something exclusive to any particular religion, right? So 'faith' has nothing to do with it.
As I understand it, Free Will is something all humans are born with and allow us to make decisions which are specific to us and what we choose to do in the moment.

However, from those people who maintain this Free Will exists, I would like some kind of evidence that it does actually exist, some examples, or experiences which show that we have some kind of choice in our lives. I just dont see it.

Second Issue - Ask and you will receive.
----------------------------------------
I was thinking the other day, whenever I have asked for or needed something to happen, some urgent intervention or when some disaster happens, we are taught(?) that we can ask for help and the help will be there. Well, where is it? I just dont see it anywhere either.

If anything, this makes me think our lives are directed and pre-ordained to be acted out in a way which we have absolutely no control over. Like a computer program as in The Matrix perhaps.

Now... some people may relate this issue with some aspect of Free Will, and others may not. However, I do not see any help being given when things are 'bad' for us, so maybe what we are 'taught' is just not true. Things happen to us when they are planned to happen and we have no influence on anything.

I have no doubt that someone is going to say that we cannot appreciate all the small details of how the Universe works and that our perception of 'bad' is not really 'bad' at all. Why then are we 'taught' that this intervention will happen if we ask?
What gives you the idea that there is free will? No such things is promised in the Bible.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:23 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
2,820 posts, read 1,895,091 times
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No Bible of Neuroscience will ever tell you that such a thing as free will exists.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:47 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
11,346 posts, read 7,399,724 times
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There are some of us who believe that free will simply can not exist. If free will existed humans would very quickly destroy themselves and probably all other life, too.

This belief is founded on the principle that God is the essence of all life. Without God there could be no life, but without life there could be no God. That means God created the universe (as we know it) but will live only as long as the universe supports life. No life; no God.

The reason free will can not exist is because human kind, left to itself, is simply not capable of making decisions regarding the complexity of life on planet earth. The Infinite Intelligence, which resides within each of us, uses life itself to maintain life.

It was that way long before the first sound was made by an animated creature.

In other words, things will be just fine. We life forms will never the destroy earth, because we lack the autonomous decision making freedom to do so.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,557,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
The reason free will can not exist is because human kind, left to itself, is simply not capable of making decisions regarding the complexity of life on planet earth. The Infinite Intelligence, which resides within each of us, uses life itself to maintain life.

It was that way long before the first sound was made by an animated creature.

In other words, things will be just fine. We life forms will never the destroy earth, because we lack the autonomous decision making freedom to do so.
I think it's dangerous to say that "god won't let us destroy the earth" because that gives many people leave to go ahead and destroy it. Christian fundamentalists (which you don't appear to be) have a version of this, where they say that only god is in charge of the climate, it's considered sacrilegious to suggest that god is not "in control". This is generally used as an excuse to be bad stewards of the environment, even from the perspective of many other Christians.

It is manifestly obvious that humanity is perfectly capable of wrecking the environment and has already gone a long way in that direction. I, for one, am not wiling to risk that some people's imagined backstop of a god exists, cares, and actually will hold everything together. When science demonstrates some sort of "hard stop" beyond which climate change can't go, I'll consider that. Theological musings don't count here.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:34 PM
 
34,412 posts, read 8,855,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
If it is real, they had been working on that billion dollar contraption for ten years and they finally proved that we were not holograms who lived a million years ago but I am still the skeptic, are we really real Daddy?
If we are not...so what? We are not the product of a brain in a vat or a sinle -idea projection,. The evidence is is in the unexpected. One mins would not surprise itself. Or at least the weight of evidence is in a reality apart from a single mental (or software) projection.

So even is we are a hologram daddy or part of an alien computer -game, mummy, so long as it is bot demonstrably real in its pwn term and reliably predictable in physical law terms, it doesn't matter what it si. This 'what if we don't really exists' stuff is just ploy by the religious Woo -peddlers to try to frighten us into scurrying to the religious security blanket (1).

Nope. Once you know what to take as reliable and know what not to rely on because it is illusory, you can't frighten an old rationalist anymore. We have seen all the tricks, and we aren't fooled by them now.

(1) and let's see if I can get this to take...after a dozen Unilaterally Imposed Updates ..nope...
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,231 posts, read 4,228,306 times
Reputation: 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
If we are not...so what? We are not the product of a brain in a vat or a sinle -idea projection,. The evidence is is in the unexpected. One mins would not surprise itself. Or at least the weight of evidence is in a reality apart from a single mental (or software) projection.

So even is we are a hologram daddy or part of an alien computer -game, mummy, so long as it is bot demonstrably real in its pwn term and reliably predictable in physical law terms, it doesn't matter what it si. This 'what if we don't really exists' stuff is just ploy by the religious Woo -peddlers to try to frighten us into scurrying to the religious security blanket (1).

Nope. Once you know what to take as reliable and know what not to rely on because it is illusory, you can't frighten an old rationalist anymore. We have seen all the tricks, and we aren't fooled by them now.

(1) and let's see if I can get this to take...after a dozen Unilaterally Imposed Updates ..nope...
I Just think it ridiculous to think we are the only life in the universe, and even more ridiculous to believe that there aren't people out there with technology a million years ahead of us. I mean, if humankind was allowed to continue exploring technology for another ten thousand years uninterrupted, what will humans be able to do?


I am certainly not one who believes in UFO's or that anyone has ever seen just one, EXCEPT for Ezekiel. I can't get over the imagery in Ezekiel. It leads me to think that God came from some place else, visited this earth and left but is going to return. If we humans continue as we are, how much more like God will we become in being able to produce miracles?


Then there is that thing in Daniel where Daniel prayed and an angel was sent to him, but this angel was detained by the king of Persia, and I can't help but think that there is a Persia in another dimension or another world, because it wasn't the human king of Persia holding up an angel, but I would lean to dimension because we see the eyes opened up in a man where he could actually see the army of the Lord when he couldn't see them before.


I just don't think it is that black and white, whether here or there, I see humankind becoming like God in a very short future if we continue in these miracle inventions and awakenings to building a person ourselves. Yeah, you wont be able to get that minute back.
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