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Old 01-11-2018, 05:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I think it shows that whoever changes religion more than once (from what their parents believed) will be the one who is actually thinking about and considering their beliefs.

Rather than just accepting what others have told us to believe, that must be good for determining what it is we, ourselves, really believe - whether it is aother orthodox religion or something else.
This says it perfectly imo. Ive always wondered why family members just feel content with the religion their parents passed on to them, its like they never even questioned it, or felt the need to do their own searching.

Ive asked my dad about this, and he just says his parents were catholic and he never felt the need to ask questions or search out other religions, so he is catholic too, he also did the same thing with us kids, however I did not 'just accept' this, I had questions and did feel the need to do some searching.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
This says it perfectly imo. Ive always wondered why family members just feel content with the religion their parents passed on to them, its like they never even questioned it, or felt the need to do their own searching.

Ive asked my dad about this, and he just says his parents were catholic and he never felt the need to ask questions or search out other religions, so he is catholic too, he also did the same thing with us kids, however I did not 'just accept' this, I had questions and did feel the need to do some searching.
On the other hand the post you're responding to suggests that people who change religions "more than once" are the only ones thinking. If meant literally, that is an absurd assertion.

This implies that at least two false starts are required to find a belief system that is supportable and/or works for you personally. I don't think that's at all necessarily true. Nor is it necessarily a great idea; life is short, and thrashing around in religion-land is not the best way to spend it.

In my case I left my religion of origin because it's based on a failed epistemology (religious faith) that does not tend to move one closer to a clear view of reality. A careful review of all the major religions revealed the same problem. Meanwhile over the years I've found a far better epistemology (expressed in rationality, empiricism, the scientific method) that accurately explains experienced reality and accurately predicts outcomes of various actions. This solves the problem -- and the things that remain unknown / unexplained are clearly identified and owned as such and, I see no explanatory power in religious ideation that would shed any light on those matters. On the other hand I see a lot of potential in rational inquiry to eventually shed light on them, and am perfectly comfortable admitting ignorance about it in the meantime. These areas are also not terribly relevant to every day living, e.g., origin of life from non-life.

I have recently and provisionally modified my thinking to allow for the possibility of seeking community and refuge among the liberal religious, to the extent I can engage in that with intellectual honesty and without being a second-class citizen. I have no expectations of this providing me with supportable new information about life or purpose or meaning, etc., only of providing the main thing religion is actually good for: community. That is a social good that does not need god to explain it, but sometimes, because religion is so entrenched for so long in the larger society, is most easily obtained through a social circle that happens to be centered on a religious tradition.

At any rate this experiment does not to my mind qualify as a second "change of religion", merely a softening toward some very watered-down aspects of religion as a possible source of something useful such as feeding the hungry in our community. I remain an atheist and in many respects an anti-theist. I am simply finding common cause with liberal believers, which, actually, secular humanists and atheists have a tremendous amount of.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Actually, Jesus said the opposite. He said that all that come to him, he would not turn away.
I agree with this completely, but in another post, you said that we are pre-destined. I'm left thinking that while you'd say that He will receive all that come to Him, but that we really don't have a choice as to whether to come to Him or not. It has all been determined beforehand. Is that actually what you believe? In other words, there are some people (lots of people, actually) who are really just here on earth filling space, with no real chance to choose for themselves to accept Christ. I don't believe that, and I would hope that no one on this forum does.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I agree with this completely, but in another post, you said that we are pre-destined. I'm left thinking that while you'd say that He will receive all that come to Him, but that we really don't have a choice as to whether to come to Him or not. It has all been determined beforehand. Is that actually what you believe? In other words, there are some people (lots of people, actually) who are really just here on earth filling space, with no real chance to choose for themselves to accept Christ. I don't believe that, and I would hope that no one on this forum does.
Yes. Scripture actually says we are born at war with God. In our natural state, we cannot choose God. But those that God regenerates will choose him and he will not turn them away. Jesus said that those the Father "gives" to him he will not turn away. It's not up to us to simply be smart enough to choose him.

The Pelagian heresy says that we can choose God and that we have libertarian free will.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yes. Scripture actually says we are born at war with God. In our natural state, we cannot choose God. But those that God regenerates will choose him and he will not turn them away. Jesus said that those the Father "gives" to him he will not turn away. It's not up to us to simply be smart enough to choose him.
I believe that we are born completely innocent of any wrongdoing. I agree, however, that that in man's natural state (once he has reached the point where he can distinguish between good and evil), he is by nature an enemy to God. But I believe all who have ever been born are born with a conscience (or what I would call "the light of Christ"). We may not be "smart" enough to choose Him on our own, but He reaches out to all of us, and those who are seeking Him will absolutely find Him. The Holy Ghost will touch the hearts of those who are open to its promptings, and they will act on the feelings they get and choose God. I know you will also disagree with this, but I believe there are circumstances which will affect the ability of some people to interpret the promptings they receive, and for reasons beyond their control, they will not find Him until they have died and are awaiting their resurrection and judgment. I see God as giving His creations, His children, every conceivable opportunity to accept His Son as their Savior, and I don't think for one minute that He will arbitrarily exclude anyone.

Quote:
The Pelagian heresy says that we can choose God and that we have libertarian free will.
Okay, thanks for your input. I can't say I agree with you, but to each his own.

Last edited by Katzpur; 01-11-2018 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:11 PM
Status: "Make America great again!" (set 23 hours ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
14,578 posts, read 7,846,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I agree with this completely, but in another post, you said that we are pre-destined. I'm left thinking that while you'd say that He will receive all that come to Him, but that we really don't have a choice as to whether to come to Him or not. It has all been determined beforehand. Is that actually what you believe? In other words, there are some people (lots of people, actually) who are really just here on earth filling space, with no real chance to choose for themselves to accept Christ. I don't believe that, and I would hope that no one on this forum does.
Read Romans 9.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Read Romans 9.
Okay, I just did, and I can understand how you could interpret this as you have. I'm afraid I see too many other passages in the Bible that refute that concept for me to understand it as you do. I find it to be entirely incongruous that the God who loved all mankind enough to send His Only Begotten Son to atone for their sins would turn away anyone who humbled himself and came to Him for salvation. This is one we're simply going to have to agree to disagree on.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Hoping to settle down.
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Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Have you converted from one religion to another more than once in your life?
I canned Catholicism when I was 15 and have checked out different religions since but have never found a church I want to join. I feel no need to join one. I believe in God and Jesus but pray and talk to them on my own. I do believe in Judeao-Christianity now. A blend of both. I can't stand what the word Christianity brings to mind now.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:53 AM
Status: "A subtle racist is still a racist" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Colorado Springs
16,675 posts, read 7,935,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiznluv View Post
I canned Catholicism when I was 15 and have checked out different religions since but have never found a church I want to join. I feel no need to join one. I believe in God and Jesus but pray and talk to them on my own. I do believe in Judeao-Christianity now. A blend of both. I can't stand what the word Christianity brings to mind now.
I think is the approach that is gaining traction throughout the U.S. at this point. In the past 10 years I have occasionally gone to a Methodist Church and a Catholic Church, and both are surprisingly sparsely attended. The Catholic Church in my old home town used to have 5 masses a weekend, and now has 1, and none during the week. The good part about this trend is that some of those people no longer attending church are actually thinking about their faith and how they want to conduct it, although I am sure there are others who have just gotten lazy to attend church.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:07 PM
 
4,219 posts, read 1,022,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe that we are born completely innocent of any wrongdoing.
That is a common fallacy. The Bible says differently. It says we inherit sin through Adam. That's why we must be born again -- because Jesus is referred to as the "2nd Adam".
Quote:
I agree, however, that that in man's natural state (once he has reached the point where he can distinguish between good and evil), he is by nature an enemy to God. But I believe all who have ever been born are born with a conscience (or what I would call "the light of Christ"). We may not be "smart" enough to choose Him on our own, but He reaches out to all of us, and those who are seeking Him will absolutely find Him.

OK....so we are born innocent, but at war with God? How does that work?
Quote:

The Holy Ghost will touch the hearts of those who are open to its promptings, and they will act on the feelings they get and choose God. I know you will also disagree with this, but I believe there are circumstances which will affect the ability of some people to interpret the promptings they receive, and for reasons beyond their control, they will not find Him until they have died and are awaiting their resurrection and judgment. I see God as giving His creations, His children, every conceivable opportunity to accept His Son as their Savior, and I don't think for one minute that He will arbitrarily exclude anyone.

Okay, thanks for your input. I can't say I agree with you, but to each his own.
Can you back up any of that with Scripture?

On the other hand, Ephesians 1:4-5 actually says we were predestined before the foundations of the world. It clearly and unambiguously states that. Ephesians 2:1-4 says that all mankind were "sons of disobedience" and were by nature children of wrath. Not innocent. By nature we were children of wrath until he "made us alive in Christ" (5).
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