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Old 01-12-2018, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
You should read Paul's letter to the Galatians about the Judaizers. He suggested they cut off their manhood rather than force Gentiles to become Jews. That is putting people in bondage.
Christianity is a legal sect of Judaism, converts converted to Judaism, and they were not in bondage because the punishment of not keeping the law was taken away, so how can you lay a bondage on doing things that please God, you don't want to do the things that please God, I understand.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:57 PM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 10 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Christianity is a legal sect of Judaism, converts converted to Judaism, and they were not in bondage because the punishment of not keeping the law was taken away, so how can you lay a bondage on doing things that please God, you don't want to do the things that please God, I understand.
What text says that a convert does not have to obey the Law?
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
What text says that a convert does not have to obey the Law?
Romans. And most of Paul's letters. But you may not consider them Divinely Authoritative Scripture.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Christianity is a legal sect of Judaism, converts converted to Judaism, and they were not in bondage because the punishment of not keeping the law was taken away, so how can you lay a bondage on doing things that please God, you don't want to do the things that please God, I understand.
What do you mean 'legal sect'? Who says it's legal?
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:22 PM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 10 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Romans. And most of Paul's letters. But you may not consider them Divinely Authoritative Scripture.
Yes, I agree that Romans and the rest of Paul's letters are Scripture.

Yes--Christianity is explicit that one does not have to keep the Law to be saved -- be it Jew or Gentile. But I was under the impression that HF was saying that a convert to Judaism did not have to keep it.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
That is a common fallacy. The Bible says differently. It says we inherit sin through Adam. That's why we must be born again -- because Jesus is referred to as the "2nd Adam".

OK....so we are born innocent, but at war with God? How does that work?
It works because You say that we are at war with God - Katz doesn't.

Quote:
Can you back up any of that with Scripture?

On the other hand, Ephesians 1:4-5 actually says we were predestined before the foundations of the world. It clearly and unambiguously states that. Ephesians 2:1-4 says that all mankind were "sons of disobedience" and were by nature children of wrath. Not innocent. By nature we were children of wrath until he "made us alive in Christ" (5).
Well, in Romans, it says that Abraham was Righteous because he Believed, trusted and had faith in God, before the Mosaic Law was given and indeed before Jesus arrived. Logically, Abraham must be saved enough to be saved and so potentially is everyone else. The Law (Paul says) is an added burden - if you break the laws, you lose Rignteousness (spiritual 'uncircumsicion' as he puts it) but provided you don't treansgress, Jews can be saved just as Abrajam was, and without Jesus.

Now it's true that later on he argues that Faith in Jesus is the same sort of Abrahamic Righteousness. In other words, I you believe in Jesus, it's as good as believing in God, and the mosaic law isn't needed and in fact you are better off without it. He moves from insisting that observing the law is incumbent on circumcised Jews, but later on seems to think that it excuses Jews from the Law.

Now, as to predestination, it is utterly clear that this does not make efforts to convert pointless. The conversion activities are Freewill -valid and the choice to believe or not equally so. Of course God knew how it would all turn out, but that is not the same as deciding what we would decide - which would of course nullify free will and make us Robots.

The Idea of 'Fate' and there is no point in trying to change it is, a logical and doctrinal error, I feel, as preaching and converting and struggling to be worthy is all part of it, and hardly anybody suggests 'well missionary work and preaching and prayer and worship is all pointless, because you are saved from the start or you aren't and even if you become Stalin, if you were predestined for Heaven as God's choice, you can do what you like. Who are we to question, God, anyway?"

Of course it doesn't work like that and free will and works is all valid getting a change made by prayer or conversion is a free will and a change, but not a chage To gods plan but a chage that is Part of God's plan.

Paul surely understood this and Christians seem to instinctively know it, too, but some Theological bods and some atheist debunkers - seems to get a bit confused about it.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:15 PM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 10 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It works because You say that we are at war with God - Katz doesn't.
Not just me. The Bible says it--specifically Ephesians 2:11-16

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."


Quote:


Well, in Romans, it says that Abraham was Righteous because he Believed, trusted and had faith in God, before the Mosaic Law was given and indeed before Jesus arrived. Logically, Abraham must be saved enough to be saved and so potentially is everyone else. The Law (Paul says) is an added burden - if you break the laws, you lose Rignteousness (spiritual 'uncircumsicion' as he puts it) but provided you don't treansgress, Jews can be saved just as Abrajam was, and without Jesus.
I completely agree. What was Abraham's faith in? It was in the promise that God gave to him. He had faith in God's plan of redemption -- of him blessing Abraham, and his people. God's plan is to do that through Jesus. So while Abraham was righteous by believing and looking forward to the Messiah, we are righteous by looking back at the Messiah.
Quote:
Now it's true that later on he argues that Faith in Jesus is the same sort of Abrahamic Righteousness. In other words, I you believe in Jesus, it's as good as believing in God, and the mosaic law isn't needed and in fact you are better off without it. He moves from insisting that observing the law is incumbent on circumcised Jews, but later on seems to think that it excuses Jews from the Law.
Yes, it does exclude them from having to practice the Law. He makes the point in Romans that their Law-keeping did not make them righteous.
Quote:
Now, as to predestination, it is utterly clear that this does not make efforts to convert pointless. The conversion activities are Freewill -valid and the choice to believe or not equally so. Of course God knew how it would all turn out, but that is not the same as deciding what we would decide - which would of course nullify free will and make us Robots.
The point is that, if we read what Ephesians 1-2 says...we are not able to make that choice. John 1:12 says that those that believe have the right to become children of God, then it says that it's not even a choice made out of our own will, but of God. So God gives us the grace, and changes our hearts so that we WANT to choose him where we did not want to before.

Predestination does not invalidate the will. But the Bible clearly teaches that sinful man cannot choose God. We do not have libertarian free will to be able to freely choose God or sin. We are born with an evil heart, and we live in it until God regenerates us.


Quote:
The Idea of 'Fate' and there is no point in trying to change it is, a logical and doctrinal error, I feel, as preaching and converting and struggling to be worthy is all part of it, and hardly anybody suggests 'well missionary work and preaching and prayer and worship is all pointless, because you are saved from the start or you aren't and even if you become Stalin, if you were predestined for Heaven as God's choice, you can do what you like. Who are we to question, God, anyway?"
Of course it doesn't work like that and free will and works is all valid getting a change made by prayer or conversion is a free will and a change, but not a chage To gods plan but a chage that is Part of God's plan.

Paul surely understood this and Christians seem to instinctively know it, too, but some Theological bods and some atheist debunkers - seems to get a bit confused about it.
I have not suggested that we not evangelize. God uses us to preach the Gospel to all nations, (Matthew 28:18-20.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yes, I agree that Romans and the rest of Paul's letters are Scripture.

Yes--Christianity is explicit that one does not have to keep the Law to be saved -- be it Jew or Gentile. But I was under the impression that HF was saying that a convert to Judaism did not have to keep it.
They don't, nor do they have to be circumcised, observe Kashrat or any other Mosaic rites. Now it is arguable whether a Christian - believing in the Abrahamic God becomes a Jew. One could say that of Muslims, and I'm sure that (apart from our pal Khalif, who suggests they are all the same) Muslims would not consider themselves Jews nor would Jews regard Muslims as Jews. Though I did read that initially Muhammad thought his new religion would be accepted by the Jews just as Paul hoped his new take on religion would also be accepted by Judaism.

The Jews in fact did not regard either as a 'legal' sect of Judaism, though Paul I presume always considered that it was. So while HF and Paul may say 'we are a legitimate sect of Judaism' the Jews may say 'No you ain't'. Because their view of the Law and the rites is not that of Christianity or Paul. And I agree with them. Abraham could be 'saved' before the law was given. But, after it was given it had to be observed. Simply believing and trusting God wasn't enough. Laws had been given and were to be kept.

But what can be given can all be takeneth away, and (all part of the predestined plan) Jesus turned up to make the Law obsolete...pardon me "Fulfil" it. So by the time the Gospels (following Paul) were written, not only was the law not incumbent on Jews so they had to keep it or lose their salvation, but it became a barrier to salvation and observing these laws were more likely to bugger your chances of salvation than help them. And while before Jesus, you could be saved by believing in God, even if (like Abraham) you'd never heard of Jesus, once Jesus and His Law (see the sermon on the mount) was given, Abrahamic Righteousness was not enough and nor, really was the Law. By the time the gospels were written, you had to believe in Jesus or you could not be saved.

I already observed that Paul shifted from Jews having to follow the law to Jews (that is, himself ) didn't have to obey the law after all, so long as they believed in Jesus. And by the gospels, Jews were wicked, pretty much, whether they were led to be wicked by the law or were just wicked anyway and the Law was just part of it.

Sorry, but John and Luke and pretty much all of them subscribed to the view that observing the Law (including Sabbath ) was unimportant. Doing Good was more important - provided one believed in Jesus. Works - from Paul wailing that his Corinthians could become Unsaved (known to God before Creation started) if they kept banging their aunts, to the constant nagging to keep doing lots of Good, especially to nice Hobbittseses, in order to ensure that Once, saved, you stayed saved, works - good works - could not save you, but a lack of good works, might Unsave you. As God of course knew it would, before he even said. "Let there be Plants".

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-12-2018 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:18 PM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 10 days ago)
 
5,285 posts, read 1,326,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
They don't, nor do they have to be circumcised, observe Kashrat or any other Mosaic rites. Now it is arguable whether a Christian - believing in the Abrahamic God becomes a Jew. One could say that of Muslims, and I'm sure that (apart from out pal Khalif, who suggests they are all the same) Meslims would not consider themselves Jews nor would Jews regard Muslims as Jews. Though I did read that initially Muhammad thought his new religion would be accepted by the Jews just as paul hoped his new take on religion would also be accepted by Judaism.

The Jews in fact did not regard either as a 'legal' sect of Judaism, though Paul I presume always considered that it was. So while HF and Paul may day 'we are a legitimate sect of Judaism' the Jews may say 'No you ain't'. Because their view of the Law and the rites is not that of Christianity or Paul. And I agree with them. Abraham could be 'saved' before the law was given. But, after it was given it had to be observed. Simply believing and trusting God wasn't enough. Laws had been given and were to be kept.

But what can be given can all be takeneth away, and (all part of the predestined plan) Jesus turned up to make the Law obsolete...pardon me "Fulfil" it. So by the time the Gospels (following Paul) were written, not only was the law not incumbent on Jews so they had to keep it or lose their salvation, but it became a barrier to salvation and observing these laws were more likely to bugger your chances of salvation than help them.

I already observed that Paul shifted from Jews having to follow the law to Jews (that is, himself ) didn't have to obey the law after all, so long as they believed in Jesus. And by the gospels, Jews were wicked, pretty much, whether they were led to be wicked by the law or were just wicked anyway and the Law was just part of it.

Sorry, but John and Luke and pretty much all of them subscribed to the view that observing the Law (including Sabbath ) was unimportant. Doing Good was more important - provided one believed in Jesus. Works - from Paul wailing that his Corinthians could become Unsaved (known to God before Creation started) if they kept banging their aunts, to the constant nagging to keep doing lots of Good, especially to nice Hobbitteses, in order to ensure that Once, saved, you stayed saved.
I'm not sure you really understand what I'm saying. Nowhere am I saying anyone has to follow the Law.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:16 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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I prefer to think of my religion (worldview) as modifying or adapting, rather than changing or converting.

There are points in my life where a discrete moniker like Presbyterian, Atheist, Stoic, Heathen, Buddhist may have seemed applicable to an outside observer, but I never really pigeonholed or labeled myself.

Many traditional societies (outside or before the advent of the big, modern monotheistic religions) didn't have a formal, proper name for their religion or belief system. It was just called something like 'our way', 'our belief', 'our tradition' or some variation on that theme in the given language.
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