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Old 01-22-2018, 03:05 PM
 
7,270 posts, read 3,076,719 times
Reputation: 1490

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorman View Post
I don't understand fundie speak, so all of the trite phrases you use are meaningless to me. According to the Word of God - what does that really mean and wouldn't it be open to personal interpretation? Is a Christian that kills an abortion doctor acting in conformance with the Will of God? Is a baker that refuses to sell cakes to gay people following the Word of God? What about a Protestant pastor that officiates at a gay wedding, Word of God approved? Where can these specific instructions be found? Even though they are all Christians, a Baptist, Catholic and a Mormon are going to have very different ideas about what the Word of God is so who and what determines the actual Will of God?
Well it all essentially boils down to the verse. Matthew 22:35-40. We are to love each other. Killing someone is not loving them. The essential message in Christianity is compassion and forgiveness. Such foundations are not open for interpretation. It is crystal clear in the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorman View Post


Your final comment proves my point. First, I don't agree with you that getting married is an immoral activity. Second, I fail to see how selling someone a cake is a symbol of your approval/disapproval of their relationship.
The cake is a symbol of their unity. Otherwise, why not just serve tacos at their wedding? Would you sell a cake celebrating a father marrying his daughter? Happily decorate it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by shorman View Post

The bakers know nothing about these people except that they are LGBTQ, certainly not enough to make value judgements about them or their lifestyle as you call it. You suspect that a judge that told a jury God wanted a not guilty verdict is suffering from mental illness or dementia. However, you are worried about the ramifications of not being nasty enough to gay people to satisfy your angry God. Your statement sounds just as crazy to me as what the judge said - just being honest with you.
No I'm worried about the ramifications of passing laws that take a dump on the 1st Amendment. Once you start making exception laws to the original law that government should not make any law preventing the free exercise of one's faith then where does it end? What is to stop a gay couple from using discrimination law as a means to force pastors to officiate gay weddings and have them in their church building?
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Upstate New York
11,768 posts, read 4,310,213 times
Reputation: 4388
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorman View Post
It is obvious their concerns about Sharia Law really boil down to market share. They have no problems at all if a judge or politician uses Christian dogma to create and interpret laws. However, let a Muslim or Jew do the same thing and they freak out.
Yes, that is the mentality of many in the Religious Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorman View Post
I was never aware how many Americans actually crave a Taliban style theocracy until I started reading CD forums and other conservative websites.
Scary, isnít it? Itís even worse when you consider the number of children being brainwashed into these far-right movements.
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:23 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
9,694 posts, read 9,888,165 times
Reputation: 6507
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Well it all essentially boils down to the verse. Matthew 22:35-40. We are to love each other. Killing someone is not loving them. The essential message in Christianity is compassion and forgiveness. Such foundations are not open for interpretation. It is crystal clear in the Bible.
I'm really glad to know that you are opposed to the death penalty.


Quote:
The cake is a symbol of their unity. Otherwise, why not just serve tacos at their wedding? Would you sell a cake celebrating a father marrying his daughter? Happily decorate it?


No I'm worried about the ramifications of passing laws that take a dump on the 1st Amendment. Once you start making exception laws to the original law that government should not make any law preventing the free exercise of one's faith then where does it end? What is to stop a gay couple from using discrimination law as a means to force pastors to officiate gay weddings and have them in their church building?
Can you point me to the Bible verse that refers to baking cakes? I've looked, but I can't find it.

BTW, I, like you, dislike making exceptions to the law. Anti-discrimination laws apply to everybody. No exceptions.
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:25 PM
 
7,617 posts, read 6,312,749 times
Reputation: 1292
If this Judge is Not putting these people who were charged with a crime in a Christian rehab resort like ``teen challenge`` then this judge is way out of bounds to believe God is going to fix it with no supervision .... As God fixes people of crime in ``teen challenge `` through the power of the redemption of Jesus Christ
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,028 posts, read 8,063,837 times
Reputation: 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
If this Judge is Not putting these people who were charged with a crime in a Christian rehab resort like ``teen challenge`` then this judge is way out of bounds to believe God is going to fix it with no supervision .... As God fixes people of crime in ``teen challenge `` through the power of the redemption of Jesus Christ
Christian rebab of that sort, ignoring the advertised testimonies, doesn't have a great track record. I'm put in mind of Josh Duggar going to a Christian rehab to make a show of getting his act together after he was found to have fondled his younger sisters. No one could explain what sort of "treatment" he was going to get and what success or failure was supposed to look like. The facility was not using approved / proven therapies. It was a vanity facility for celebrity Christians to make a pretense at personal reform.

I'm not saying that a professionally run facility using the actual mental health "standard of care" can't be any good just because Christians run it. I'm talking about facilities that are run by pastors or other ideologues with no mental health qualifications. Maybe Teen Challenge has upped its game since the Dave Wilkerson / Nicky Cruz era, I don't know. But one critique of Teen Challenge is that their religious exemption protects the programs from inspections by the stateís department of children and families, which means students can be imprisoned or shackled and, unlike with licensed youth programs, can be denied contact with their parents and prevented from accessing child-abuse hotlines. So there are accusations of abuses involving improper restraint and other issues.

So I'd definitely distrust a program that cites its major expertise as channeling the power of an invisible being.
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Old 01-22-2018, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
14,019 posts, read 6,295,609 times
Reputation: 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Well it looks like Mystic was wrong. You ARE Essentially saying that you see no problem, if others step in or hold their ground to prevent it being a problem.
Have you lost ALL reading comprehension?
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:52 PM
 
35,784 posts, read 23,960,204 times
Reputation: 5701
This is the question mordant posed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
And yet I'll bet no one can give me a coherent, objective way to tell the difference between their beliefs and their imagination.
This is the answer Nate suggested:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
When ACTUAL harm is caused by the belief-based action?
This where Arq mistakenly thought Nate was asking a question when he was posting an answer to mordant's question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
How can you possibly ask such a question?
This is my attempt to correct Arq:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nate was answering a question, NOT asking one, Arq. Of course, he sees a problem here.
This is mordant misunderstanding what was posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Uh .... Arq QUOTED a QUESTION and RESPONDED to it.
This is nate correcting mordant:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Uh, Nate highlighted a question and responded to it.
This is Arq misunderstanding the entire sequence:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Well it looks like Mystic was wrong. You ARE Essentially saying that you see no problem if others step in or hold their ground to prevent it being a problem.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:27 AM
 
31,596 posts, read 7,299,077 times
Reputation: 4486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
The title of the thread might be more accurate as: "This is why we are sometimes seen as utterly foolish"
Only by the Fools for God.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:30 AM
 
31,596 posts, read 7,299,077 times
Reputation: 4486
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Have you lost ALL reading comprehension?
I can't comprehend what wasn't clearly explained. Do you see a problem with this judge asking a jury to acquit on supposed orders from God or not? A simple yes or no will satisfy me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is the question mordant posed:

This is the answer Nate suggested:

This where Arq mistakenly thought Nate was asking a question when he was posting an answer to mordant's question:

This is my attempt to correct Arq:

This is mordant misunderstanding what was posted:

This is nate correcting mordant:

This is Arq misunderstanding the entire sequence:
It doesn't clarify Nate's position . Asking what actual harm is not the issue. The problem is the one I put. In fact it looks like an evasion of the issue with an irrelevance. That the Jury refused to play ball and prevented the harm does not mean there is not a problem.

I ask for a simple yes or no; is there a problem with a Judge who entertained supposed directives from above. Browsers will recognize further evasion as easily as I do, but not you, Mystic, so it seems.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,028 posts, read 8,063,837 times
Reputation: 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I can't comprehend what wasn't clearly explained. Do you see a problem with this judge asking a jury to acquit on supposed orders from God or not? A simple yes or no will satisfy me.



It doesn't clarify Nate's position . Asking what actual harm is not the issue. The problem is the one I put. In fact it looks like an evasion of the issue with an irrelevance. That the Jury refused to play ball and prevented the harm does not mean there is not a problem.

I ask for a simple yes or no; is there a problem with a Judge who entertained supposed directives from above. Browsers will recognize further evasion as easily as I do, but not you, Mystic, so it seems.
I have to agree that the harm or benefit of an action rooted in religious faith is irrelevant to whether or not something is a product of imagination or divine insight / revelation / instruction / guidance.

The basic reason being that we can (and do) apply this to ANY action to determine if it should be considered moral or ethical in a given context. The effects of actions by ANYONE, believer or unbeliever, is either good, neutral, or harmful.

The question here is how you'd tell the difference between divine influence and one's own imagination. Unless you're willing to assert that all good, including good done by atheists, is divinely inspired, then this is a completely non-sequitur measure for what I was actually getting at.

Let's make it more concrete. Let's say a Christian walks up to a woman and says, "God told me that you are to be my wife". How would the (un)lucky lass in this scenario tell the difference between this being god's will and nothing more than the over-eager libido of her suitor?

I mean, this is consequential. Maybe the woman isn't attracted to the guy at all. Maybe she's not currently seeking marriage. Heck, maybe SHE thinks god has already called her to be a nun. Yet -- IF this guy is truly conveying a message from god -- it would be incumbent upon her to ignore her own goals and desires and submit to god's will. So just because she's resistant or uninterested, she can't reject it out of hand -- not in ReligionLand(tm). So what does she do? How does she sort it out?
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