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Old 01-24-2018, 09:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Romans 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed ifrom heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ezekiel 25:17 - And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...-Wrath-Of-God/
Wrath (noun)----extreme anger, fury, rage

As people, we all experience anger/rage. It could be because someone cut you off on the freeway. It could be because of a death in the family. It could even be because we are a victim of a crime. Whatever the reason, we can ALL relate to this thing called anger.

Let's now apply this to a "God"
Clearly, the Christian God experiences anger; and not just average anger. He has wrath (and lots of it). First, let's examine some common triggers of anger before we get into God's anger issues.....

-Fired from your job (didn't expect THAT to happen)
-Your S/O cheated on you (didn't expect THAT to happen)
-Your teen stole money from you (didn't expect THAT to happen)

What ever the triggers are, all triggers are the unexpected results to otherwise pleasant expectations. Here's the problem. How can an all-knowing eternal being get blind sided by the unexpected? And if the source of all creation did in fact "see it coming" then he CREATED it.

The entire idea of an angry God that we should fear demotes God beneath the title of all-knowing/all-powerful. Therefore, an all powerful being could not experience anger; proof that we created him in OUR image and in OUR likeness...

I'd like to read some of your thoughts on the topic of God's wrath. Do you believe that God gets angry? Do you fear his anger? Are you non-believing like me and see anger as evidence of a God that we invented? All comments are welcomed and respected.

Last edited by urbancharlotte; 01-24-2018 at 09:28 PM..
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,034 posts, read 2,273,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
Wrath (noun)----extreme anger, fury, rage

Are you non-believing like me and see anger as evidence of a God that we invented? All comments are welcomed and respected.
Yup.

Quote:
How can an all-knowing eternal being get blind sided by the unexpected? And if the source of all creation did in fact "see it coming" then he CREATED it.
According to the bible, God created everything.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:29 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,550 posts, read 4,014,878 times
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I believe that some religious people would see their Gods' wraths as "not real" because of their fore-knowledge, but still necessary, ...because of our originally faulty and weak design?

However, Bibliolatrists and others who worship material works of art like Holy Books and Holy Statues as supposed Elysium connections would think that Gods must have "Godly wrath," ...but I suppose then they'd also need to have "Godly sleep" and "Godly shame" since they, in such thinking, are forced to share (although "Godly") in all human sentience and more but in heavier ways.
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Start with the idea that the Bible contains human perceptions including a range of anthropomorphic projections concerning the nature of God. Then go through and actually realize how varied and contradictory those perceptions are throughtout that book.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,028 posts, read 8,063,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
What ever the triggers are, all triggers are the unexpected results to otherwise pleasant expectations. Here's the problem. How can an all-knowing eternal being get blind sided by the unexpected? And if the source of all creation did in fact "see it coming" then he CREATED it.

The entire idea of an angry God that we should fear demotes God beneath the title of all-knowing/all-powerful. Therefore, an all powerful being could not experience anger; proof that we created him in OUR image and in OUR likeness...

I'd like to read some of your thoughts on the topic of God's wrath. Do you believe that God gets angry? Do you fear his anger? Are you non-believing like me and see anger as evidence of a God that we invented? All comments are welcomed and respected.
I think this is vastly under-explored territory. Anger is an emotional reaction to violated expectations that produces a sense of existential threat. In our coddled western world, anger is often over-determined and childish irritation and annoyance over distinctly first-world problems and hides behind the charge that it's "unfair" in some way, but it originally evolved as a protection against the unexpected. The more unexpected, the more angering, the more a person is aroused to defend themselves, to "fight back".

And you're right, this is completely contrary to the omniscience of god (since he knows everything, literally nothing would be a surprise that would trigger anger), the omnipotence of god (since he's all-powerful, he can handle anything even if it WERE unexpected; it would not make him feel picked on, put upon, or threatened to begin with) and the omnibenevolence of god (a truly benevolent god would not let anything get in the way of his empathy and compassion and mercy, which he would always act out of).

When you think of it, this is really every bit the logical conundrum as the Problem of Evil, and demands a theodicy of some kind to get out of. It's just that we're so used to being abused by authority, so caught up in Stockholm Syndrome, that it SEEMS less compelling than it actually is.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
24,046 posts, read 12,861,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
Wrath (noun)----extreme anger, fury, rage

As people, we all experience anger/rage. It could be because someone cut you off on the freeway. It could be because of a death in the family. It could even be because we are a victim of a crime. Whatever the reason, we can ALL relate to this thing called anger.

Let's now apply this to a "God"
Clearly, the Christian God experiences anger; and not just average anger. He has wrath (and lots of it). First, let's examine some common triggers of anger before we get into God's anger issues.....

-Fired from your job (didn't expect THAT to happen)
-Your S/O cheated on you (didn't expect THAT to happen)
-Your teen stole money from you (didn't expect THAT to happen)

What ever the triggers are, all triggers are the unexpected results to otherwise pleasant expectations. Here's the problem. How can an all-knowing eternal being get blind sided by the unexpected? And if the source of all creation did in fact "see it coming" then he CREATED it.

The entire idea of an angry God that we should fear demotes God beneath the title of all-knowing/all-powerful. Therefore, an all powerful being could not experience anger; proof that we created him in OUR image and in OUR likeness...

I'd like to read some of your thoughts on the topic of God's wrath. Do you believe that God gets angry? Do you fear his anger? Are you non-believing like me and see anger as evidence of a God that we invented? All comments are welcomed and respected.
You created some scenarios in linking anger to unexpected events - which is not the case with God.

So how about looking at it from a parent-child relationship. A parent can tell a child to do something, and be angry when it doesn't get done - especially after repeatedly giving the same instruction. An event does not have to be unexpected to generate anger.

Understand that we come from God. The reason we get angry is because we are made in His image - and He gets angry.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You created some scenarios in linking anger to unexpected events - which is not the case with God.

So how about looking at it from a parent-child relationship. A parent can tell a child to do something, and be angry when it doesn't get done - especially after repeatedly giving the same instruction. An event does not have to be unexpected to generate anger.

Understand that we come from God. The reason we get angry is because we are made in His image - and He gets angry.
1) Anger is anger. You can't have a special definition of it for god

2) A child gets angry because it doesn't expect to be restricted, or expects to get away with ignoring a restriction. The basic mechanism still holds.

3) You may be laboring under the misconception that there are special kinds of justified anger such as "righteous indignation" but they are just specific / detailed reasons for generic anger. In this case, "righteous" expectations are violated. I expected obedience, didn't get it.

Last edited by mordant; 01-25-2018 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:08 AM
 
6,075 posts, read 9,277,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
.So how about looking at it from a parent-child relationship. A parent can tell a child to do something, and be angry when it doesn't get done - especially after repeatedly giving the same instruction. An event does not have to be unexpected to generate anger.
Isn't God on a much higher level than a parent? God can predict outcomes as well as create them. How can a parent with those powers get angry? I'm a father of 3 and I WISHED that I had those powers sometimes.

At any rate, I do like your God-parent analogy. You see "us vs angry God" as "teen/child vs angry parent". I see it as "new born baby vs angry parent". In my world view, something is wrong with the parent.

Last edited by urbancharlotte; 01-25-2018 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:27 AM
 
3,077 posts, read 750,816 times
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Ive always thought it strange that in many bible verses and stories, God has no problem showing his wrath, and doing so in a way that could not be confused with anything else, but in modern times, he prefers to stay more hidden, like a natural disaster, some may claim this is Gods wrath, for some immoral acts of the people or its leaders, but it cant be proven, it COULD just be a naturally occurring disaster.

Sodom and Gomorrah is another example, the people KNEW why this was happening and KNEW who was causing it, the event could not be mistaken for any natural event.

Its strange to me that God does not show his hand like this today. I would assume if it was Gods wrath, he would the people to know, without a doubt, why it was happening and who it was coming from. He wouldnt want anyone to even consider it may just be natural disaster, scientifically explainable.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,028 posts, read 8,063,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Ive always thought it strange that in many bible verses and stories, God has no problem showing his wrath, and doing so in a way that could not be confused with anything else, but in modern times, he prefers to stay more hidden, like a natural disaster, some may claim this is Gods wrath, for some immoral acts of the people or its leaders, but it cant be proven, it COULD just be a naturally occurring disaster.

Sodom and Gomorrah is another example, the people KNEW why this was happening and KNEW who was causing it, the event could not be mistaken for any natural event.

Its strange to me that God does not show his hand like this today. I would assume if it was Gods wrath, he would the people to know, without a doubt, why it was happening and who it was coming from. He wouldnt want anyone to even consider it may just be natural disaster, scientifically explainable.
The obvious answer is that at this point in history we understand what causes things like natural disasters, thunder, violent weather and the like. Gods aren't necessary to explain these things, not remotely. The gaps in which the gods live has shrunk to a tiny percentage of its original size, and continues to shrink.

So it's not that god doesn't "show himself", it's just that the set of things that people consider as examples of god "showing himself" has shrunk.

Ironically as a result of this we have most modern fundamentalists claiming that "miracles aren't for today" and stopped happening, conveniently, when "the canon of scripture was closed" back at the Council of Nicea. In other words all the "proof" anyone needs of god's existence and demands is now found in the Bible, we are expected to live by religious faith, and the "training wheels" so to speak of attesting miracles is no longer required. This is of course not a scripturally supportable teaching, it is an inferred (read: made up) doctrine similar to any number of such made-up doctrines like the "age of accountability" or 'life begins at conception". Which is why some Christians (pentecostals, charismatics) teach that miracles ARE for today and then redefine all sorts of mundane events and personal subjective experiences as "miracles".

Round and round it goes ...
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