U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-27-2018, 07:38 PM
 
35,768 posts, read 23,953,827 times
Reputation: 5701

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
No -- no physical evidence and yes -- assumption. Or, assertion without evidence, to be more exact.
The somewhat nebulous concepts of soul and spirit, sometimes used interchangeably, sometimes with distinctions -- are tied to the idea that if humans are immortal such that they could survive intact into an afterlife, there must be some non-corporeal "essence" that dwells within the body while alive, and is separable from it at death. It's also mixed up in the notion that humans are extra-special in some mystical or supernatural way, that they are not just smart, particularly self-aware apes. Sometimes "soul" signifies the latter notion, "spirit" the former notion.
It's just another example of supernatural qualities, entities or realms that are inherently non-falsifiable, about which no supportable knowledge claim can be made, and for which there is no good reason to believe in their existence.
There is nothing supernatural because there is no such thing. The enormous general ignorance about the physical impossibility that our consciousness resides within our brain is why these kind of discussions are pointless. As long as you are mired in the mistaken belief that you are your body and brain, you have zero chance of understanding anything involving Spirit or Soul (whatever words you prefer). I have seen the BEST expositor I have ever encountered try to reveal the issues involving the consciousness phenomenon and fail with some of the most erudite and clear explanations possible. That is why I consider this discussion pointless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-27-2018, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,027 posts, read 8,061,034 times
Reputation: 5960
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is nothing supernatural because there is no such thing. The enormous general ignorance about the physical impossibility that our consciousness resides within our brain is why these kind of discussions are pointless. As long as you are mired in the mistaken belief that you are your body and brain, you have zero chance of understanding anything involving Spirit or Soul (whatever words you prefer). I have seen the BEST expositor I have ever encountered try to reveal the issues involving the consciousness phenomenon and fail with some of the most erudite and clear explanations possible. That is why I consider this discussion pointless.
And yet ... here you are, discussing it. And not evidencing your claims, either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 02:25 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,526 posts, read 4,013,137 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
I hope I am not talking past too many people, I understand not everyone has a strong grasp of the thoughts and knowledge gathered in the fields of philosophy and science.

I think you are simply conversing with yourself. With a bit of superiority. Not to use the c word.
Your entire premise is built on chaotic collection of un truths. Like Sakyamuni said - if you start your Way off the wrong idea, it will lead you only to wrong goal.
I think that is what talking past someone means, is it not? Are you so emotional as to rise to an anti-feminine explicative and ad-hominem? Your choice.

Details are always wonderful ukrkoz. Please delineate for us which are some of these "chaotic collections" and how they are "un truths." That is what the [quote] function is for.

Like Sakyamuni should have said - if you start your Premise with your wrong conclusions, you will only go around aimlessly in circles.

Indeed, the religions have only led many astray, enticing them with wrong and detrimental goals.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 02:33 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,526 posts, read 4,013,137 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This concept is carnal-minded NOT spiritual-minded that's why people are confused. We are embryo Spirits in a physical womb and our Spirit grows and develops as a single entity no matter what its physical composition is.
Yes, "soul implanted into zygote at conception" is indeed carnal-minded, even nature shows that it can only be wrong with the paradox of the chimera.

Now, if we are embryo Spirits in a physical womb, I need only remind you that science has revealed to us that embryos and wombs share and trade parts of their essences/cells with each other. If our Spirit grows and develops as a single entity regardless of that which is physical, than it must have its own space-time separate (but somehow connected and correlated) from the space-time of the physical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 02:37 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,526 posts, read 4,013,137 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
You're making this up as you go anyway, so I suppose the answer is whatever you decide it is.
Are you projecting on me, Tired of the Nonsense? The answer to what? Does a congenital chimera person have one soul or two, if they are created from the fusion of two pre-formed embryos?

If I am just "making this up" (like immaterial souls are made-up by people) then it might help other readers if you clarify which parts of what I am saying are not factual and why. Rather than just going around "deciding whatever" beforehand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 02:43 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,526 posts, read 4,013,137 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Yes, the very question presupposes ANYONE gets a soul, and to an extent presupposes what a soul is. I think the definition and existence of souls must be established as a first step. Then we can talk about edge cases and logical conundrums.
It doesn't matter what a soul is or if they exist. The only premise that matters and which yields the paradox and conundrum is that each separate zygote gets "implanted with a soul at conception." This would mean that a congenitally chimera person would have two souls in their single personal identity. Unless one is to say that one of the souls gets trapped, in which case, how would it get "saved" into blissful immortality through "faith/cronyism"? [In the general Christian and Muslim world-view that is].

Of course, the most common chimeras are created from the live-cells of their dead fetal womb-siblings. But two zygotes fusing and creating a person with two sets of cell-lines does happen also, in the less common type of chimera, which is the one I am talking about, the early zygote-formed chimeras.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 01-28-2018 at 02:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 07:24 PM
 
35,768 posts, read 23,953,827 times
Reputation: 5701
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Yes, "soul implanted into zygote at conception" is indeed carnal-minded, even nature shows that it can only be wrong with the paradox of the chimera.

Now, if we are embryo Spirits in a physical womb, I need only remind you that science has revealed to us that embryos and wombs share and trade parts of their essences/cells with each other. If our Spirit grows and develops as a single entity regardless of that which is physical than it must have its own space-time separate (but somehow connected and correlated) from the space-time of the physical.
It DOES have its own space-time. Our Spirit (consciousness) exists at the level of EM-like phenomena, NOT at the level of solid matter. It is a unique resonant neural energy form created by the brain much as a TV transmitter creates a transmitted TV program in its EM radiation. We cannot currently measure the type of EM-like energy that is produced in the form of consciousness but the process would be analogous.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,606 posts, read 1,918,232 times
Reputation: 4830
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Chimeras are individuals produced by the merger of multiple zygotes (fertilized eggs), post-conception.

The answer to contradicting ideas of what individuals have or are is getting ever closer,
the "soul" is not "implanted" at conception,
nor at "quickening" in the womb,
nor "at birth,"
nor "at first breath" post-birth.

The "immortal soul" is merely a vain person's empirical-existence-hating dream.

It does upset the worse-off people* to see themselves [and sometimes even others] as they naturally are. They are the dreaded haters and losers, and they are the majority, and they faction against each other in favor of their vain supernaturalist politics. Ugly politics. The best of the peace-makers are in perfect equanimity with any rational possibility. This includes wise and reasonable people of any persuasion.

Spoiler
* "worse off people" as in not necessarily material ways; and either because of their own accord or due to outside circumstances

There is a ton of other empirical inconsistencies and logical fallacies associated with the concept of "souls" and "spirits" --which are not always seen as separate things.

Please discuss the pros and cons of these sorts of "immaterial-identity" ideas with me and others below, both in terms of empirical evidence and theoretical/hypothetical thought.
Last I heard DNA does NOT posses a SOUL!! The unknown happens with the gestational period and research has suggested.. Twins often exchange IF one dies during gestation... The other twin absorbs as THEY are still growing and absorbing ..

But sorry SORRY to say.. Cells, DNA does NOT POSSESS Soul... The Soul is actually different.. It's a single entity. I've watched many medical/scientific reviews of this.. BUT there's no connection of any human having 2 "SOULS" within ONE Body.... Course unless you wish to suggest that Schizophrenic's are somehow 2 personalities?? LOL.. Mental disease can have multiple personalities behaviours .. BUT has ZIP to do with Chimera!! One human NLY has one soul.. that's a GIVEN!! If there was 2 can you imagine???? Medically/ Scientifically/Forensically it's a nothing more than speculation and some sort of explanation for aberrant behaviours.

Human's on earth are GREATLY flawed.. When will people realize>> There are whole load of BAD/Nast/Evil types amongst us? Let's get real.. Bad people do BAD things and it isn't just those THUGS Politicians love to blame either.. People in power often do empower such people ( Stumpers who encourage them and bless their mindset!! ) Does that RING A BELL?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2018, 11:08 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,526 posts, read 4,013,137 times
Reputation: 1063
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It DOES have its own space-time. Our Spirit (consciousness) exists at the level of EM-like phenomena, NOT at the level of solid matter. It is a unique resonant neural energy form created by the brain much as a TV transmitter creates a transmitted TV program in its EM radiation. We cannot currently measure the type of EM-like energy that is produced in the form of consciousness but the process would be analogous.
A little bit over my head, but I suppose that could work. But that is a long ways away from the "it doesn't need any explanation or even the possibility of a rational basis because it is supernatural" line I would get from the various churches I attended. I have a feeling that most Muslims would have said the same thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-29-2018, 07:45 PM
 
4,284 posts, read 2,070,203 times
Reputation: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The "immortal soul" is merely a vain person's empirical-existence-hating dream.
.
First of all, the Scriptures do Not teach immortal soul but mortal soul.
Mortal Adam did Not have a soul, he did Not posses a soul, he was Not given a soul.
Adam ( All of Adam ) was a soul according to Genesis 2:7.
An immortal soul is a false religious teaching outside of Scripture just taught as being Scripture.
So, a person is a living soul, and at death a person becomes a dead soul, or a lifeless soul.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life as per Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Adam simply went back to where he started the dust of the ground.

If the soul was immortal ( death proofed ) there would be No need for a resurrection of the living.
The 'sinning soul dies' as per Ezekiel 18:4,20, and the soul can be destroyed as per Acts 3:23.
Satan is a sinner, and according to Hebrews 2:14 B Jesus will destroy Satan.
All the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalm 92:7 ( annihilated ).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top