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Old 02-05-2018, 12:32 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,562 posts, read 3,124,472 times
Reputation: 3917

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Mordant you keep using literal interpretation; fundamental understanding of scripture. why?

The atheist and fundy christian just can't seem to grasp anything outside of the literal. It is ironic to me that the atheist does not agree with the way the fundy see the scriptures yet continually uses them and see them in the same light. Yet when someone comes along and tells them Jesus and only Jesus is the standard by which we are to live and all scripture is subject to Him (Jesus) they complain about cherry picking etc. Have you never noticed how the writers of the Gospels cherry picked scripture from the OT? Cherries are good, pick as many as you like and as long as they point to Jesus and what He taught you will have found one precept of the precept upon precept.
We say you're cherry picking because, well, you're cherry picking. All you're doing is choosing the juiciest, ripest cherries and displaying them to us, hoping we'll believe that the entire cherry tree produces nothing but cherries that look and taste like the best cherries you've selected.

It's nothing short of a scam, to be honest, but ... because it's a religious scam ... people are allowed to promulgate it without fear of being shown as wrong. I suppose that's why all those fake miracle healers and greedy televangelists keep drawing huge crowds of gullible dolts no matter HOW many times they are proven factually and legally to be frauds. *shrug*

Now, you accuse us of taking things too literally. In what OTHER way are we supposed to take them?

Oh, wait, let me guess -- we should accept your non-literal interpretation of Jesus and what he supposedly did or represented. Right, right, because you have the one, true, and correct interpretation and the tens of thousands of other interpretations are all wrong. Except everyone with an interpretation will claim that all other interpretations are wrong, including yours. When I'm talking to someone else with a non-literal interpretation of Jesus, why shouldn't I believe that person over you? Why should I believe you over that other person? Hmm? Please, by all means, tell me.

The bottom line is really very simple: If it's not in the Bible, you're just making shyte up. You accuse atheists of being just like the religious fundamentalists -- well, okay -- except I wouldn't be the first person to say that the religious fundamentalists are actually the truest, most grounded Christians out there. THEY are the ones who most closely represent what their religion is supposed to be about. The more liberal the Christian, the further removed they are from actual scripture. Naturally we atheists are happy that liberal Christians have distanced themselves from that damnable book, but in terms of the "true" Christian religion, they're probably the furthest away.

Which is why atheists tend to "harp" on a more literal translation because why *wouldn't* God expect the Bible to be taken literally? Why would a rational God give uneducated, mostly illiterate, scientifically and psychologically clueless desert tribesman a book that requires higher-order thinking skills and a reasonable amount of education to even read ... much less figure out? No, the idea behind the Bible, indeed as it is with ALL religions, is to supply a ready-made simplistic answer to the masses' biggest questions. You can't put a book like that above the intellectual reach of 97% of the population and expect the religion to flourish. Meaning, then, that the Bible was meant to be taken exactly as written.

The trouble with it is that it's so poorly written that even following it literally becomes an exercise in interpretations and millions of different opinions on what this or that means.

I recently read a so-called "atheist" test -- one of the most despicable pieces of Christian propaganda my eyes have had the misfortune of falling upon. One of the questions is whether or not I had ever broken one of the 10 Commandments. What I found bizarre is how this shameless propagandist test interpreted the 10 Commandments -- as if the author was trying to make sure, just in case, to make NOT running afoul of one of the Commandments absolutely impossible. For instance, the test claimed that hatred was the same thing as murder in the eyes of God -- so if you've ever hated someone, even in a brief flash of anger, uh oh, you're a filthy murderer! You're just as guilty as Jeffery Dahlmer or John Wayne Gacy now. Another example is how pre-marital sex is the same thing as adultery -- which I found utterly MORONIC because having sex with someone other than your SPOUSE (not your girl/boyfriend) is the very definition of adultery, so PRE-MARITAL sex cannot be, in any least way, adultery. It just goes to show you how stupid it can get when people try to add, omit, or rearrange what the Bible actually says.

This is why we atheists often stick to a more literal interpretation. As I've said before, it's not rocket science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Now you say Jesus is not some universal touchstone that everyone objectively or intersubjectively agreed upon; However if one is a christian one is suppose to be a follower of Christ. Thus in fact to the Christian Jesus is a universal touchstone, or at least should be.
Perhaps you don't live in the United States -- I don't know. But in THIS country, Jesus ranks, at best, third place in the hierarchy of important universal touchstones.

For a staggeringly large number of American Christians, the hierarchy is this:

1). The Bible
2). The Old Testament God
3). Jesus Christ

If you're a conservative Christian Republican, Jesus drops down even further in the rankings:

1). The Republican party
2). Donald Trump
3). Money
4). The Bible
5). The Old Testament God
6). Any Republican politician
7). Jesus Christ

"If Jesus himself crawled down off his cross and told me that Donald Trump colluded with the Russians, I would say, 'Wait a minute! Let me go ask the president to make sure it's true.'" -- Idiot Trump supporter on a CNN political panel. (LOL! This country is losing collective IQ points faster than a thousand shaggy dogs shed hair in the summer).

The only Christians, of whom there are precious few, who actually place Jesus and his teachings above the Bible, dogma, immoral religious traditions, and the wargod Yahweh are the liberal Christians. The irony here is that the ONLY way to truly adhere to the goody-goody parts of Christ's teachings is to actually step away from the Christian religion. How's that for a fine-how-d'you-do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
However like I pointed out many still want to call down fire from heaven, build tabernacles to Moses and Elijah etc. and Jesus says they know not what manner of spirit they are of and God says this is my son HEAR him.
Like it or not, it was Jesus who introduced the concept of Hell and eternal torment for non-believers. That makes Jesus even more immoral than God himself considering there's literally nothing worse than eternal torture. Nothing you can do or endure on this planet, not even Hitler's Holocaust, is as bad as eternal torture. Nothing.

It was Jesus who taught 2.5 billion Christians to actually believe that those who don't join their really big cult not only *will* be tortured forever ... but they actually DESERVE it! And yet, somewhere deep in that part of the brain that regulates moral behavior, even these Christians have figured out that eternal torture is utterly and unequivocally immoral. So what they did was come up with this obscene rationalization that non-believers send THEMSELVES to Hell for refusing to believe -- as if belief is simply a choice.

Honestly, this is the one aspect of Christianity that angers me. Truly angers me. Because in this aspect, Christianity quite literally expects you to make a blood sacrifice of your own humanity and moral compass in order to believe in this garbage.

I don't know precisely what you believe, pneuma ... but what I've described is written in the Bible. If you don't believe in Hell, then you've stepped quite a distance away from one of Christianity's core doctrines. Sure, you can just believe in Jesus and end it there ... but that's believing in Jesus in a vacuum of your own creation, and that's literally creating a fiction within a work of fiction.

Last edited by Shirina; 02-05-2018 at 12:43 PM.. Reason: I dunno ... perhaps it should have been 1) Donald Trump and 2) the GOP ... I can't decide. I *sob* can't. I CAN'T! Aaahhh!

 
Old 02-05-2018, 01:45 PM
 
37,402 posts, read 25,174,606 times
Reputation: 5846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
We say you're cherry picking because, well, you're cherry picking. All you're doing is choosing the juiciest, ripest cherries and displaying them to us, hoping we'll believe that the entire cherry tree produces nothing but cherries that look and taste like the best cherries you've selected.

It's nothing short of a scam, to be honest, but ... because it's a religious scam ... people are allowed to promulgate it without fear of being shown as wrong. I suppose that's why all those fake miracle healers and greedy televangelists keep drawing huge crowds of gullible dolts no matter HOW many times they are proven factually and legally to be frauds. *shrug*

Now, you accuse us of taking things too literally. In what OTHER way are we supposed to take them?

Oh, wait, let me guess -- we should accept your non-literal interpretation of Jesus and what he supposedly did or represented. Right, right, because you have the one, true, and correct interpretation and the tens of thousands of other interpretations are all wrong. Except everyone with an interpretation will claim that all other interpretations are wrong, including yours. When I'm talking to someone else with a non-literal interpretation of Jesus, why shouldn't I believe that person over you? Why should I believe you over that other person? Hmm? Please, by all means, tell me.

The bottom line is really very simple: If it's not in the Bible, you're just making shyte up. You accuse atheists of being just like the religious fundamentalists -- well, okay -- except I wouldn't be the first person to say that the religious fundamentalists are actually the truest, most grounded Christians out there. THEY are the ones who most closely represent what their religion is supposed to be about. The more liberal the Christian, the further removed they are from actual scripture. Naturally, we atheists are happy that liberal Christians have distanced themselves from that damnable book, but in terms of the "true" Christian religion, they're probably the furthest away.

Which is why atheists tend to "harp" on a more literal translation because why *wouldn't* God expect the Bible to be taken literally? Why would a rational God give uneducated, mostly illiterate, scientifically and psychologically clueless desert tribesman a book that requires higher-order thinking skills and a reasonable amount of education to even read ... much less figure out? No, the idea behind the Bible, indeed as it is with ALL religions, is to supply a ready-made simplistic answer to the masses' biggest questions. You can't put a book like that above the intellectual reach of 97% of the population and expect the religion to flourish. Meaning, then, that the Bible was meant to be taken exactly as written.

The trouble with it is that it's so poorly written that even following it literally becomes an exercise in interpretations and millions of different opinions on what this or that means.
Not to cut off your screed which the Bible idolators deserve, but God did NOT give us a book. He gave us Jesus and His Holy Spirit. After the death of Jesus, His human consciousness was born again as Spirit (Comforter) and sent to us in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." THAT is where Christians are to look for guidance, NOT in a book. Those you call liberal Christians are doing just that, looking into their hearts under the guidance of the Comforter in agape love. The book does provide information about the Holy Spirit in the detailed descriptions in 1 Cor 13, Sermon on the Mount, and Galatians 5 so we can use those descriptions to know what in our hearts is ACTUALLY compatible with the Holy Spirit and NOT from our own selfish desires.
 
Old 02-06-2018, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,985,768 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
While there is the different perspective in our views of Jesus; you seem to believe he is dead or never existed at all. I believe he is alive and we can know him as he is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
On what basis do you believe this?
Because our spirit bares witness with his spirit that we are the children of God. However if you do not believe in spiritual things this will not likely make sense to you. However even the atheists spirit bares witness with the Holy spirits witness even if they do not see it or understand how that can be. Example: when you hear of someone being raped you know within yourself that it is an evil thing being done. You don't know why you know that but you know it. That is the Holy spirits guidance even though you wont or don't recognise it as being such.

Quote:
I agree that it's more important to DO right than to BE right.

I also agree that an accurate perception can still be incomplete or immature, like the perception of a child.

However I'm sure you must think that some perceptions ARE wrong. The perception of a sociopath that other people's feelings and needs are not important. The perception of an autocrat that he is accountable only to himself and not to the people. The perception of a person with severe anxiety that the world is a horribly dangerous and threatening place. Any number of perceptions / beliefs are intersubjectively wrong, harmful to oneself or others, etc.
Yes, but the question is how do we know that the sociopath is wrong in their actions? It is the Holy spirits guidance.

Quote:
If god is simply what people perceive and everyone's perceptions are right then your definition of god is incoherent and discussing god is pointless.
You misunderstand me mordant. God is God and it does not matter what our perceptions of him is. Again a child's perception is not the same as an adults. Your perception of me is not the same perception of me that my wife and kids have of me. Those closest to you know you better then those who are not close to you. I am still me, however my wife and kids know me better, have a better understanding of who I am.

Quote:
I have a feeling that what it means to walk in love is also a matter of perception.
Scripture does tell us how we know we are walking in love and Jesus showed us how to do it. No greater love then to lay down one life for another.

Quote:
I will say in fairness to you that a lot of what passes for meaning in life is progressively zeroing in on better and better approximations of truth. That we are always refining our understanding. That we have to start somewhere. But for this to work there has to be a common destination that makes sense. To me that destination is a defensible, substantiated, accurate apprehension of reality itself, as intersubjectively experienced. If the destination is a conceptual abstraction like "to be more loving" or "to know Jesus" then I don't know what success looks like or have any assurance that it would look the same to anyone other than myself. On the other hand when it comes to experienced reality I can always compare it to my mental model of reality and see if I'm getting meaningful explanations of my experiences and accurate predictions of outcomes. So for me, what success looks like is a minimum of surprises and false starts.
I think you do know what love or being more loving looks like mordent. For me there is no one closer then my wife and kids. I would not hesitate to lay my life on the line for them. However I cannot say I would do that for any others, I have simply not come that far in my spiritual walk yet. What that tells me is I am more loving towards my wife and kids then towards other. Now if you can say the same thing about your wife and kids or to any other then you do know what more loving looks like.

Quote:
My wife and I saw the movie "Hostiles" last night (SUPERB movie in every way, FWIW) and a phrase that stuck with me was uttered by a character whose husband and children had been slaughtered by Indians, and who was then captured by fur traders and raped. She said that she figured she'd never get used to "God's rough ways". But she had to cling to her belief in god because without it, what would she have?

To me that is the epitome of a mental model of reality that is constantly being violated / invalidated by reality itself. How far does one take such a model before one discards it in favor of something involving less cognitive dissonance?

That line is a line of thought I have been arguing against for years now.
Many people today, christian and non christian see God as being both evil and good and it is a view that is not compatible to the gifts of the Holy spirit or the view Jesus held of the Father. The reason people do this I believe is because they think we are made in the image and likeness of God (we are not, we are being made that way) and because we do both evil and good and we are in Gods image and likeness therefore God does both evil and good. It is simply a view that makes God in the image and likeness of man instead of man being made in the image and likeness of God.
 
Old 02-06-2018, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,985,768 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
We say you're cherry picking because, well, you're cherry picking. All you're doing is choosing the juiciest, ripest cherries and displaying them to us, hoping we'll believe that the entire cherry tree produces nothing but cherries that look and taste like the best cherries you've selected.

It's nothing short of a scam, to be honest, but ... because it's a religious scam ... people are allowed to promulgate it without fear of being shown as wrong. I suppose that's why all those fake miracle healers and greedy televangelists keep drawing huge crowds of gullible dolts no matter HOW many times they are proven factually and legally to be frauds. *shrug*

Now, you accuse us of taking things too literally. In what OTHER way are we supposed to take them?

Oh, wait, let me guess -- we should accept your non-literal interpretation of Jesus and what he supposedly did or represented. Right, right, because you have the one, true, and correct interpretation and the tens of thousands of other interpretations are all wrong. Except everyone with an interpretation will claim that all other interpretations are wrong, including yours. When I'm talking to someone else with a non-literal interpretation of Jesus, why shouldn't I believe that person over you? Why should I believe you over that other person? Hmm? Please, by all means, tell me.

The bottom line is really very simple: If it's not in the Bible, you're just making shyte up. You accuse atheists of being just like the religious fundamentalists -- well, okay -- except I wouldn't be the first person to say that the religious fundamentalists are actually the truest, most grounded Christians out there. THEY are the ones who most closely represent what their religion is supposed to be about. The more liberal the Christian, the further removed they are from actual scripture. Naturally we atheists are happy that liberal Christians have distanced themselves from that damnable book, but in terms of the "true" Christian religion, they're probably the furthest away.

Which is why atheists tend to "harp" on a more literal translation because why *wouldn't* God expect the Bible to be taken literally? Why would a rational God give uneducated, mostly illiterate, scientifically and psychologically clueless desert tribesman a book that requires higher-order thinking skills and a reasonable amount of education to even read ... much less figure out? No, the idea behind the Bible, indeed as it is with ALL religions, is to supply a ready-made simplistic answer to the masses' biggest questions. You can't put a book like that above the intellectual reach of 97% of the population and expect the religion to flourish. Meaning, then, that the Bible was meant to be taken exactly as written.

The trouble with it is that it's so poorly written that even following it literally becomes an exercise in interpretations and millions of different opinions on what this or that means.

I recently read a so-called "atheist" test -- one of the most despicable pieces of Christian propaganda my eyes have had the misfortune of falling upon. One of the questions is whether or not I had ever broken one of the 10 Commandments. What I found bizarre is how this shameless propagandist test interpreted the 10 Commandments -- as if the author was trying to make sure, just in case, to make NOT running afoul of one of the Commandments absolutely impossible. For instance, the test claimed that hatred was the same thing as murder in the eyes of God -- so if you've ever hated someone, even in a brief flash of anger, uh oh, you're a filthy murderer! You're just as guilty as Jeffery Dahlmer or John Wayne Gacy now. Another example is how pre-marital sex is the same thing as adultery -- which I found utterly MORONIC because having sex with someone other than your SPOUSE (not your girl/boyfriend) is the very definition of adultery, so PRE-MARITAL sex cannot be, in any least way, adultery. It just goes to show you how stupid it can get when people try to add, omit, or rearrange what the Bible actually says.

This is why we atheists often stick to a more literal interpretation. As I've said before, it's not rocket science.



Perhaps you don't live in the United States -- I don't know. But in THIS country, Jesus ranks, at best, third place in the hierarchy of important universal touchstones.

For a staggeringly large number of American Christians, the hierarchy is this:

1). The Bible
2). The Old Testament God
3). Jesus Christ

If you're a conservative Christian Republican, Jesus drops down even further in the rankings:

1). The Republican party
2). Donald Trump
3). Money
4). The Bible
5). The Old Testament God
6). Any Republican politician
7). Jesus Christ

"If Jesus himself crawled down off his cross and told me that Donald Trump colluded with the Russians, I would say, 'Wait a minute! Let me go ask the president to make sure it's true.'" -- Idiot Trump supporter on a CNN political panel. (LOL! This country is losing collective IQ points faster than a thousand shaggy dogs shed hair in the summer).

The only Christians, of whom there are precious few, who actually place Jesus and his teachings above the Bible, dogma, immoral religious traditions, and the wargod Yahweh are the liberal Christians. The irony here is that the ONLY way to truly adhere to the goody-goody parts of Christ's teachings is to actually step away from the Christian religion. How's that for a fine-how-d'you-do?



Like it or not, it was Jesus who introduced the concept of Hell and eternal torment for non-believers. That makes Jesus even more immoral than God himself considering there's literally nothing worse than eternal torture. Nothing you can do or endure on this planet, not even Hitler's Holocaust, is as bad as eternal torture. Nothing.

It was Jesus who taught 2.5 billion Christians to actually believe that those who don't join their really big cult not only *will* be tortured forever ... but they actually DESERVE it! And yet, somewhere deep in that part of the brain that regulates moral behavior, even these Christians have figured out that eternal torture is utterly and unequivocally immoral. So what they did was come up with this obscene rationalization that non-believers send THEMSELVES to Hell for refusing to believe -- as if belief is simply a choice.

Honestly, this is the one aspect of Christianity that angers me. Truly angers me. Because in this aspect, Christianity quite literally expects you to make a blood sacrifice of your own humanity and moral compass in order to believe in this garbage.

I don't know precisely what you believe, pneuma ... but what I've described is written in the Bible. If you don't believe in Hell, then you've stepped quite a distance away from one of Christianity's core doctrines. Sure, you can just believe in Jesus and end it there ... but that's believing in Jesus in a vacuum of your own creation, and that's literally creating a fiction within a work of fiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Not to cut off your screed which the Bible idolators deserve, but God did NOT give us a book. He gave us Jesus and His Holy Spirit. After the death of Jesus, His human consciousness was born again as Spirit (Comforter) and sent to us in His name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts." THAT is where Christians are to look for guidance, NOT in a book. Those you call liberal Christians are doing just that, looking into their hearts under the guidance of the Comforter in agape love. The book does provide information about the Holy Spirit in the detailed descriptions in 1 Cor 13, Sermon on the Mount, and Galatians 5 so we can use those descriptions to know what in our hearts is ACTUALLY compatible with the Holy Spirit and NOT from our own selfish desires.
trying to get people to see that, both christian and non christian, is very a very hard thing to do. Shirina's rant on the bible is a perfect example of just how hard it is for those of us who see the Holy spirit and that alone to be our guide. it almost as if they are being willfully ignorant to our stance on this as we have told them time and again that the Holy spirit is the guide that will lead us into all truth.
 
Old 02-07-2018, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,271 posts, read 391,216 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Example: when you hear of someone being raped you know within yourself that it is an evil thing being done. You don't know why you know that but you know it. That is the Holy spirits guidance even though you wont or don't recognise it as being such.
Evolved empathy. No god required.
 
Old 02-07-2018, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,985,768 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Example: when you hear of someone being raped you know within yourself that it is an evil thing being done. You don't know why you know that but you know it. That is the Holy spirits guidance even though you wont or don't recognise it as being such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Evolved empathy. No god required.
I have heard those type of explanations before from A & E (atheists & evolutionist) but natural selection via survival of the fittest would not only promote rape as being ok; evolution should have made all men rapists. The more seeds a man sow’s in more women the more offspring they have to reproduce more from the male’s genetic line.

Modern evolutionary theory defines fitness not by how long an organism lives, but by how successful it is at reproducing. If an organism lives half as long as others of its species, but has twice as many offspring surviving to adulthood, its genes become more common in the adult population of the next generation.
 
Old 02-07-2018, 03:24 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,562 posts, read 3,124,472 times
Reputation: 3917
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
trying to get people to see that, both christian and non christian, is very a very hard thing to do. Shirina's rant on the bible is a perfect example of just how hard it is for those of us who see the Holy spirit and that alone to be our guide. it almost as if they are being willfully ignorant to our stance on this as we have told them time and again that the Holy spirit is the guide that will lead us into all truth.
You know, you may not like what I have to say ... but at least I give you respect enough to talk to YOU. Directly.

Don't fuggin' quote me to someone else and then talk ABOUT me.

You know I can see that, right?

At least give me THAT much respect.

Oh, by the way, your response was just a big cop out.
 
Old 02-07-2018, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,542,251 times
Reputation: 6003
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Because our spirit bears witness with his spirit that we are the children of God. However if you do not believe in spiritual things this will not likely make sense to you. However even the atheists spirit bares witness with the Holy spirits witness even if they do not see it or understand how that can be. Example: when you hear of someone being raped you know within yourself that it is an evil thing being done. You don't know why you know that but you know it. That is the Holy spirits guidance even though you wont or don't recognize it as being such.
I know that rape is harmful to the victim and to society. It's one of the more objectively clear and documentable harms. I do not use the theological terms "evil" or "sinful" because they shed heat rather than light on the subject. Deities do not add to this understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Yes, but the question is how do we know that the sociopath is wrong in their actions? It is the Holy spirits guidance.
We know that it is wrong because we see that it causes more harm than good. Deities do not add to this understanding.

I think that one of the big sea changes for me leaving theism is that I am far more willing to give people credit for having their own moral perception. Largely because morality is no longer a mystery to me. It is not rocket science. Does an action or attitude diminish or affirm others? Does it cause suffering or delight? It isn't so hard, and we don't need the guidance of invisible beings to understand it.

That's not to say there aren't difficult moral conundrums. Sometimes one has to choose the lesser harm amongst a host of harms, and even the least harm is terrible. But I never found trying to divine the will of god to be helpful in such decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
That line is a line of thought I have been arguing against for years now.
Many people today, christian and non christian see God as being both evil and good and it is a view that is not compatible to the gifts of the Holy spirit or the view Jesus held of the Father. The reason people do this I believe is because they think we are made in the image and likeness of God (we are not, we are being made that way) and because we do both evil and good and we are in Gods image and likeness therefore God does both evil and good. It is simply a view that makes God in the image and likeness of man instead of man being made in the image and likeness of God.
I think the reason why people are inclined to see god as both evil and good is that their experience of reality is a mix of both, and god the creator is seen as the source of both, at least ultimately. After all, the buck has to stop somewhere.

If god permits suffering, then one of two situations obtain:

1) God is one or more of: not all powerful, not all knowing, or not all benevolent
2) God is not even the answer to the question of why reality is just stuff happening without apparent regard for concepts like "good" or "evil".
 
Old 02-08-2018, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,271 posts, read 391,216 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I have heard those type of explanations before from A & E (atheists & evolutionist)
So you admit to not having looked at the science behind empathy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
but natural selection via survival of the fittest would not only promote rape as being ok; evolution should have made all men rapists. The more seeds a man sow’s in more women the more offspring they have to reproduce more from the male’s genetic line.
I have heard those type of explanations before from SMTWHRTS (straw manning theists who haven't read the science), but empathy helps living in groups, which benefits the population as a whole. But then your straw man view of evolution is rather simplistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Modern evolutionary theory defines fitness not by how long an organism lives, but by how successful it is at reproducing. If an organism lives half as long as others of its species, but has twice as many offspring surviving to adulthood, its genes become more common in the adult population of the next generation.
An organism? Evolution works on populations, not individuals. And the environment is an unbiased filter, so even many offspring may all die out before they can reproduce.
 
Old 02-08-2018, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,985,768 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
You know, you may not like what I have to say ... but at least I give you respect enough to talk to YOU. Directly.

Don't fuggin' quote me to someone else and then talk ABOUT me.

You know I can see that, right?

At least give me THAT much respect.

Oh, by the way, your response was just a big cop out.
Sorry that using your post as an example got you bent out of shape, that was not my intent. If you noticed I referenced both christian and non christian, it was meant for almost everyone on this forum as we have to keep repeating and telling people we don't believe this or that.

That said, you have already told me exactly what you think of me in very colorful words so why would I want to enter into any conversation with you? Your mind has already been made up about me so what profit would there really be in engaging in conversation?

Try rereading your post shirina, but do so from my point of view. Now would you want to enter into a conversation with one who spoke that way to you?
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