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Old 01-30-2018, 12:11 PM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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This young generation is increasingly either openly non-religious or part of the more hardline groups.
Two thirds of teenagers don't believe in God - Telegraph
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rticle1320112/
Previous generations never had this mentality, where you either need to obey every rule in your religion to a tee or couldn't consider yourself religious at all, but this generation it seems to finally be happening. Young people think because they have sex, party, have gay friends, etc that they are not welcome in their religion. Confusing about this, for Christianity at least, is that the churches their parents went to (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed etc) tend to talk very little about these subjects especially compared to the churches where younger people are more highly represented (Pentecostal, Charismatic, Evangelical Baptist, Non-denominational Evangelical etc). Most of the larger mainline protestant churches have actually stopped condemning homosexuality and the like and many have a large number of LGBT members in the clergy. I've heard this is a similar issue in the Jewish community, where sects like Reform and Conservative are shrinking, but the ultra-Orthodox communities are thriving. I'd imagine it's similar in Islam and Eastern Religion as well.
What is giving the younger generation this dilemma?
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:39 PM
 
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I don't understand why you call this a dilemma. It is just people deciding that religion has no role to play in their lives. I know some religious people have a hard time understanding this, but for an increasing number of people religion is not a part of their lives at all. It is not a dilemma or tough choice, religious beliefs are simply meaningless and irrelevant to some people.

"Teenagers even say family, friends, money, music and even reality television are more important than religion." How can anyone argue with the truth of this statement? That is a much more healthy approach to life than living in constant paralyzing fear of pissing off sky daddy.

Fundamentalists are exempt from this because they are fundamentalists. Their entire worldview is shaped by being a believer. Those people wouldn't know how to function without the crutch of religion and their faith that they are special to an invisible deity.
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Old 01-30-2018, 02:17 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
This young generation is increasingly either openly non-religious or part of the more hardline groups.
Two thirds of teenagers don't believe in God - Telegraph
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rticle1320112/
Previous generations never had this mentality, where you either need to obey every rule in your religion to a tee or couldn't consider yourself religious at all, but this generation it seems to finally be happening. Young people think because they have sex, party, have gay friends, etc that they are not welcome in their religion. Confusing about this, for Christianity at least, is that the churches their parents went to (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed etc) tend to talk very little about these subjects especially compared to the churches where younger people are more highly represented (Pentecostal, Charismatic, Evangelical Baptist, Non-denominational Evangelical etc). Most of the larger mainline protestant churches have actually stopped condemning homosexuality and the like and many have a large number of LGBT members in the clergy. I've heard this is a similar issue in the Jewish community, where sects like Reform and Conservative are shrinking, but the ultra-Orthodox communities are thriving. I'd imagine it's similar in Islam and Eastern Religion as well.
What is giving the younger generation this dilemma?
What we are really witnessing here is the beginning of the demise of religion. Religions perpetuate by one generation indoctrinating the next generation into the mother belief. What is currently occurring is the younger generations are no longer buying into the ancient myths and make believe of their parents.

All religions are based on some measure of appeal to supernatural claims. These claims have always been difficult to accept rationally, but until recent times supernatural explanations were the only apparent explanations for existence and natural phenomenon.

Those days are over!

Modern science can now answer these question naturally with out recourse to supernatural make believe. Increasingly people are no longer buying into the ancient religious nonsense. The hard core religious will continue to cling to their beliefs of course. But they won't live forever.

By the end of this century Christianity will be considered a quaint relic of the past. How Islam fares depends on how thoroughly Islamic countries are brought out of the dark ages and into the 21st century. The only way for fundamentalist/ultra orthodox believers to maintain their numbers is by closing off their members to modern science, and denouncing modern science as "fake news." Somewhat humorously however, even fundamentalist/ultra orthodox believers tend to avail themselves of the high tech devices provided by modern science.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
Previous generations never had this mentality, where you either need to obey every rule in your religion to a tee or couldn't consider yourself religious at all ...
Maybe that wasn't your experience or recollection but fundamentalism didn't spring fully formed out of nowhere one generation ago. We have always had authoritarians, legalists, and dogmatists among us. Modern fundamentalism goes back to Darbyism in the 1830s, and the attitude has been around since the dawn of man.

Also, fundamentalism doesn't JUST appeal to young people, so to my mind, wondering why young people are so into it, is to reduce the probability of coming up with a good answer. I would ask why people of any sort are into it. My answer would be the desire for certitude and moral clarity, which fundamentalism gins up faux versions of. It's part of its basic appeal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdw View Post
Young people think because they have sex, party, have gay friends, etc that they are not welcome in their religion. Confusing about this, for Christianity at least, is that the churches their parents went to (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed etc) tend to talk very little about these subjects especially compared to the churches where younger people are more highly represented (Pentecostal, Charismatic, Evangelical Baptist, Non-denominational Evangelical etc). Most of the larger mainline protestant churches have actually stopped condemning homosexuality and the like and many have a large number of LGBT members in the clergy. I've heard this is a similar issue in the Jewish community, where sects like Reform and Conservative are shrinking, but the ultra-Orthodox communities are thriving. I'd imagine it's similar in Islam and Eastern Religion as well.
I am not convinced you're correctly delineated the problem.

Fundamentalism is hemorrhaging young people; they constantly lose them to higher education and mere exposure to life outside their intellectual ghetto. Meanwhile, some young people find the world a scary place, feel alienated and empty and purposeless and rudderless, and are attracted to fundamentalism's truth claims because they're a seemingly comfortable simplification of life's messiness and ambiguity.

It's an open question whether fundamentalist sects lose more youth than they gain, but I can see how fundamentalism would appeal to naive youth and liberal Christianity would have more appeal to older adults who have enough experience to see the unworkability of fundamentalism but still like the sense of community they can get from church.

Overall, I see fundamentalism as an unsustainable belief system, that is currently in its death throes. They see white, anglo-saxon, heterosexual, patriarchal protestantism losing its hegemony. Very soon now in the US, whites will be a minority rather than a majority (that role will likely go to hispanics). That alone is an existential threat for most of lily-white historic fundamentalism. #MeToo / #TimesUp is a probably permanent inflection point spelling the end of patriarchy -- another pillar of fundamentalism. The rise of the Nones is another trend going against them. Their support of Trumpism has destroyed what's left of whatever moral credibility they once had. All in all, things are not looking good for fundamentalism, an influx of idealistic and ready-to-be-disillusioned youth notwithstanding.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:31 PM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,462 posts, read 1,859,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
What we are really witnessing here is the beginning of the demise of religion. Religions perpetuate by one generation indoctrinating the next generation into the mother belief. What is currently occurring is the younger generations are no longer buying into the ancient myths and make believe of their parents.

All religions are based on some measure of appeal to supernatural claims. These claims have always been difficult to accept rationally, but until recent times supernatural explanations were the only apparent explanations for existence and natural phenomenon.

Those days are over!

Modern science can now answer these question naturally with out recourse to supernatural make believe. Increasingly people are no longer buying into the ancient religious nonsense. The hard core religious will continue to cling to their beliefs of course. But they won't live forever.

By the end of this century Christianity will be considered a quaint relic of the past. How Islam fares depends on how thoroughly Islamic countries are brought out of the dark ages and into the 21st century. The only way for fundamentalist/ultra orthodox believers to maintain their numbers is by closing off their members to modern science, and denouncing modern science as "fake news." Somewhat humorously however, even fundamentalist/ultra orthodox believers tend to avail themselves of the high tech devices provided by modern science.
The religions who embrace and encourage science are the ones facing the biggest decline in membership in Western society. You bring up some good points, but this doesn't completely hold up with your argument.
I think it's unfair to argue that religion and science are incompatible when mainstream religion does not condemn science.
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Old 01-30-2018, 04:03 PM
 
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I don't think myself that religion and science are really compatible. Science may accommodate religion by keeping it separate, or religion may accept the findings of science but keep Godfaith in places where science cannot go. That is, the gaps for God. But they are gradually being closed down.

But it is true that many (I recall that the Pew review found about half the nones) still do believe in a god of sorts, while not espousing any particular religion - even culturally or residually. It is organized religion that it taking it on the chin and irreligious theism or 'agnostics' as they call it, or even 'spiritual', is still a pretty safe gap for "God".
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Old 01-30-2018, 08:12 PM
 
12,351 posts, read 13,056,222 times
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Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
What we are really witnessing here is the beginning of the demise of religion...Those days are over! .... Increasingly people are no longer buying into the ancient religious nonsense. ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I don't think myself that religion and science are really compatible. Science may accommodate religion by keeping it separate, or religion may accept the findings of science but keep Godfaith in places where science cannot go. That is, the gaps for God. But they are gradually being closed down.

But it is true that many (I recall that the Pew review found about half the nones) still do believe in a god of sorts, while not espousing any particular religion - even culturally or residually. It is organized religion that it taking it on the chin and irreligious theism or 'agnostics' as they call it, or even 'spiritual', is still a pretty safe gap for "God".
i recall from the Pew research that 84% of the world population identifies with religion, and another 9% believes in God. so that is 93% of the world accepts religion or God.

So for most people science and religion are very compatible. to the tune of 93% of the world.
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Old 01-30-2018, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
i recall from the Pew research that 84% of the world population identifies with religion, and another 9% believes in God. so that is 93% of the world accepts religion or God.

So for most people science and religion are very compatible. to the tune of 93% of the world.
You're fudging. For example, Buddhists identify with religion, but generally do not believe in a god power.
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:51 PM
pdw pdw started this thread
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
1,462 posts, read 1,859,878 times
Reputation: 827
Outright Biblical literalism is an American idea introduced by the Puritans. The vast majority of Christians, Muslims and Jews see things like Noah's Ark, Jonah and the whale and the theory of creation, etc as symbolic ideas intended to convey a message, not historical or scientific facts. A poor understanding of world religions would give one the impression that science and religion are contradictory, but this is not the case. I think this is the main problem young people are facing. The media tends to show a negative view of religion when it is discussed and only sheds light on more hardline fringe groups rather than mainstream organized religion, giving youth a warped view of their parents' faith.
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:58 PM
 
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by pdw View Post
The religions who embrace and encourage science are the ones facing the biggest decline in membership in Western society. You bring up some good points, but this doesn't completely hold up with your argument.
I think it's unfair to argue that religion and science are incompatible when mainstream religion does not condemn science.
Nor does science seek to undermine religion. Science is about discovering what is true, and religion is about establishing and maintaining a set doctrine. Science is not intended to be the foe of religion. It just works out that way.
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