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Old 02-04-2018, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
25,454 posts, read 13,630,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrandK-Man View Post
Another problem is our sanctuary itself is small: 70' deep by 40' wide, roof peaks out at 20' high. Altar/stage is 24" elevated above main floor.

Mackie 12" powered pair mains, two 10" Behringers wedges plus new IEMs for monitoring. Operating this system in unity(PFLs around 0dB RMS, input faders between -5 to 0, Mains at 0), would blow out my hometown 130'x50'x40' Lutheran ELCA organ church! Let alone our little sanctuary. lol!

So for most of the time I was running everything at less than optimal levels - input gain PFLs -5 to -10, mix faders between -15 to -10, Mains at -5, and volume was still barely tolerable. Mackie mains levels at 12 o'clock. Now with new digital mixer and saved 'scenes' for both us and our tenant Spanish speaking church, levels have crept back upward toward almost painful.

So basically it's difficult to run even a modest system, like ours, in it's 'zone' without deafening half the congregation and even disturbing private residences within 100' of such a small sanctuary.

Yet my Pastor continues to proclaim to me "if you think this is loud you should hear how the Spanish group ran their worship - the whole(adjoining) parsonage house shook" Until they agreed to turn it down - a little.
I forgot to check back in here... I thought about this thread for some reason while I was in church this morning.

Yeah, you are out of balance with those fader levels. Sounds like the instrument levels entering the board need to come down. With IEMs, you should be able to keep the sound level reasonable. Or you could turn down the amp levels to lower the speaker levels. I would adjust the instrument levels first.

The continuing battle is operating the board at levels where the house is reasonable while giving the performers enough to where they are happy. If they are using IEMs, they may want to feel more sound from other sources - which means those other sources will need to be louder.

Last edited by DRob4JC; 02-04-2018 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
25,454 posts, read 13,630,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobo7396 View Post
Do like I did. Download a sound meter app on your phone. Measure the decibel level in church while the music is playing. See that it is above 85 decibels, which is not recommended without hearing protection. Find another church, repeat the test, and don't stop til you find one below 85 dB. I value my hearing and my families hearing.
The thing about is that it's supposed to be worship... not a concert. The sound should be loud enough to hear if the congregation gets excited about the music.

So when I operate the board, I try to keep it reasonable, but at times it does need to be above 85dbA when necessary. When the ambient noise of the crowd is elevated, then the louder music doesn't seem "loud".

But the when music is just loud and the crowd is quiet, that does not help an attitude of worship.
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Old 02-04-2018, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Cleaning CAT VOMIT out of radiators
1,779 posts, read 555,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I forgot to check back in here... I thought about this thread for some reason while I was in church this morning.

Yeah, you are out of balance with those fader levels. Sounds like the instrument levels entering the board need to come down. With IEMs, you should be able to keep the sound level reasonable. Or you could turn down the amp levels to lower the speaker levels. I would adjust the instrument levels first.

The continuing battle is operating the board at levels where the house is reasonable while giving the performers enough to where they are happy. If they are using IEMs, they may want to feel more sound from other sources - which means those other sources will need to be louder.

Yeah, to get channel faders up to around 0("unity") without blowing out the windows, I'd need to reduce input gain a bit on everything, then just boost up the monitor sends.

All of this is now controlled by a digital Behringer board, which I am studying the manual in my spare time to get used to. It's up front by the stage, not back where the old(decommissioned) board which I used to operate, still sits at the audio & proj. tables.

Be it that new Behringer or the old Yamaha analog, it's just impossible to run everything 'in the zone'(unity PFLs, unity channel and mains faders, house powered Mackie 12s at 12 o'clock center click) in this small church without deafening congregants - and rattling the neighbors. Remember: back row pews to the wall with the cross on it is less than the distance from the pitcher to home plate at a major league game!

So there's two options on the new digital board: Get PFL levels(input trim) up on everything - peaking -6 to -4dbFS, and run channel faders down between -20 to -15dBFS. Or, keep input PFLs low, and run faders around -10. Remember: digital board, so Zero at the top.

On the old analog board, where I was more hands on the sound, I remember the worship team always motioning me for 'more, more' monitor. It got to the point where I actually ran the rest of the worship with the house mains(master fader) DOWN, and the old stage wedges provided enough volume, and nobody was the wiser, even the Pastor! And loud to me is but a whisper to him and some of the worship team.

Last edited by TheGrandK-Man; 02-04-2018 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 02-07-2018, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
25,454 posts, read 13,630,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrandK-Man View Post
Yeah, to get channel faders up to around 0("unity") without blowing out the windows, I'd need to reduce input gain a bit on everything, then just boost up the monitor sends.

All of this is now controlled by a digital Behringer board, which I am studying the manual in my spare time to get used to. It's up front by the stage, not back where the old(decommissioned) board which I used to operate, still sits at the audio & proj. tables.

Be it that new Behringer or the old Yamaha analog, it's just impossible to run everything 'in the zone'(unity PFLs, unity channel and mains faders, house powered Mackie 12s at 12 o'clock center click) in this small church without deafening congregants - and rattling the neighbors. Remember: back row pews to the wall with the cross on it is less than the distance from the pitcher to home plate at a major league game!

So there's two options on the new digital board: Get PFL levels(input trim) up on everything - peaking -6 to -4dbFS, and run channel faders down between -20 to -15dBFS. Or, keep input PFLs low, and run faders around -10. Remember: digital board, so Zero at the top.

On the old analog board, where I was more hands on the sound, I remember the worship team always motioning me for 'more, more' monitor. It got to the point where I actually ran the rest of the worship with the house mains(master fader) DOWN, and the old stage wedges provided enough volume, and nobody was the wiser, even the Pastor! And loud to me is but a whisper to him and some of the worship team.
Question... is there anything in the signal flow running with the levels hot?

Sometimes when it's loud in my experience, the board levels look OK, but the EQ levels are hot, or the amp levels are hot.
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Old 02-07-2018, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Cleaning CAT VOMIT out of radiators
1,779 posts, read 555,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Question... is there anything in the signal flow running with the levels hot?

Sometimes when it's loud in my experience, the board levels look OK, but the EQ levels are hot, or the amp levels are hot.
EQ was mostly cuts.


All powered Mackie mains and powered Behringer wedges output levels at center detent(12 o'clock).

If I lowered any of them they'd say it wasn't loud enough. Can't win!

If you read back to the beginning, you'll see how this loudness thing started only in the last few months.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:30 AM
Status: "RURAL, the new code for WHITE" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: GOVERNMENT of TRAITORS & NAZIS
20,297 posts, read 22,305,889 times
Reputation: 7565
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrandK-Man View Post
I have been attending a lovely, Spirit-led AG church now for nearly four years. I have been running their sound for a good part of that time, but lately I feel that the volume level has gotten out of hand.

They recently installed a digital audio console that is largely set and forget, but even when I was running the sound the levels they demanded from me, lately, bordered on the painful to listen to.

This is unfortunate because my wife and I both go there, and feel that we are growing in God together. The Pastor, in his mid-sixties, is very down to Earth and isn't afraid to preach the good and bad in the Bible, so that we have a good grasp of God's word.


I have even considered going back to the 'pipe organ' Lutheran I grew up in(I'm not really a fan of rock n roll worship song), but everyone I've talked to says it isn't a good idea for spouses to attend separate churches, even Christian ones.
Guess there is s going to be some really hurtful EARS for some when The Lord thunders from heaven.
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Old 02-08-2018, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
25,454 posts, read 13,630,246 times
Reputation: 9671
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrandK-Man View Post
EQ was mostly cuts.


All powered Mackie mains and powered Behringer wedges output levels at center detent(12 o'clock).

If I lowered any of them they'd say it wasn't loud enough. Can't win!

If you read back to the beginning, you'll see how this loudness thing started only in the last few months.
I had read back through it.

Do you think there is any hearing loss from those demanding more?

A couple of other things that crossed my mind...

How is the mix? Are those who complain that they don't have enough... what are they trying to hear?

In the past, performers would want to vocals up... then they couldn't hear the keys, so they wanted those up... then they couldn't hear the organ... and then you just end up turning everything up bit by bit. Sometimes when they wanted - let's say they couldn't hear the vocals, I would check the other levels to see if an instrument is drowning out the vocals, and I would cut that down.

I don't think I remember seeing it - have you measured the sound during the worship when it's loud? I'm curious to know what it is.
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Old 02-09-2018, 06:02 AM
 
Location: Cleaning CAT VOMIT out of radiators
1,779 posts, read 555,552 times
Reputation: 1493
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I had read back through it.

Do you think there is any hearing loss from those demanding more?

A couple of other things that crossed my mind...

How is the mix? Are those who complain that they don't have enough... what are they trying to hear?

In the past, performers would want to vocals up... then they couldn't hear the keys, so they wanted those up... then they couldn't hear the organ... and then you just end up turning everything up bit by bit. Sometimes when they wanted - let's say they couldn't hear the vocals, I would check the other levels to see if an instrument is drowning out the vocals, and I would cut that down.

I don't think I remember seeing it - have you measured the sound during the worship when it's loud? I'm curious to know what it is.
Pretty much moot points now that they have the digital Behringer up front(their stage left). Everyone except guest singers has their own IEMs and IP boxes at their stations to control their own monitor mix.


But I can still bring my meter to church a couple Sundays and check things out.

As far as hearing loss? I know my Pastor and the one of his daughters who used to be involved with the worship team could not care how loud it gets. The Pastor is late sixties, and daughter is mid-20s.

Unfortunately DRob: I am the throwback in this matrix. The one who values quality over quantity, vitality over volume, dynamics vs a constant rush of noise, etc. etc.

We'll see what the meter reveals.
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,373,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrandK-Man View Post
Unfortunately DRob: I am the throwback in this matrix. The one who values quality over quantity, vitality over volume, dynamics vs a constant rush of noise, etc. etc.
Despite that I don't share your beliefs, I share your values here. And feel your pain.

One thing I've gradually figured out is that my biggest problem in life has been caring too much and trying too hard. Mostly the theater in which this has any opportunity to play out for me anymore is in the workplace. And what I've managed to make myself do is, ask myself this question: Does ANYONE else actually CARE in any meaningful way about this thing I'm killing myself to get right / correct for? I don't often encounter outright disagreement / opposition in the workplace, so much as indifference. I am now asking myself: will anyone ever know that I've done this? And often, the answer is, no. And so ... I just don't do it.

What I then notice is that sometimes, one, two, three years down the road, someone will suddenly stub their toe on the very issue I've let go of and suddenly their awareness is activated and their understanding opened and they ask me to fix it (and not incidentally, pay me to fix it) and then I have the opportunity to explain that I was aware of this years ago, recommended we do this very thing, and the company didn't want to expend the resources to even understand the issue much less fix it. So here we are. And I find that even more gradually, people start listening to me a little more when I bring something up, because they know I'm not doing it just to put my mark on things or feather my nest; if I bring it up it's actually needful.

Another example from way back in the 1980s. I had a prospective client who wanted custom accounting software. I gave him a quote, and he said his nephew offered to do the deed for a fraction of the price, but thanks anyway. I just smiled and thanked him for his time. Not six month later he calls me and explains that his nephew has brought his operations to its knees and could I please come in after all. He went on to become one of my very best and most loyal clients.

So I guess what I'm saying is, either do something else or just go along with it and be in it for the long game. Be diplomatic and kind, but firm and clear. Eventually ... reality will interfere in the form of hearing loss, member loss, ennui or some combination of the above, and then they know where to find you ;-)
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Cleaning CAT VOMIT out of radiators
1,779 posts, read 555,552 times
Reputation: 1493
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Despite that I don't share your beliefs, I share your values here. And feel your pain.

One thing I've gradually figured out is that my biggest problem in life has been caring too much and trying too hard. Mostly the theater in which this has any opportunity to play out for me anymore is in the workplace. And what I've managed to make myself do is, ask myself this question: Does ANYONE else actually CARE in any meaningful way about this thing I'm killing myself to get right / correct for? I don't often encounter outright disagreement / opposition in the workplace, so much as indifference. I am now asking myself: will anyone ever know that I've done this? And often, the answer is, no. And so ... I just don't do it.

What I then notice is that sometimes, one, two, three years down the road, someone will suddenly stub their toe on the very issue I've let go of and suddenly their awareness is activated and their understanding opened and they ask me to fix it (and not incidentally, pay me to fix it) and then I have the opportunity to explain that I was aware of this years ago, recommended we do this very thing, and the company didn't want to expend the resources to even understand the issue much less fix it. So here we are. And I find that even more gradually, people start listening to me a little more when I bring something up, because they know I'm not doing it just to put my mark on things or feather my nest; if I bring it up it's actually needful.

Another example from way back in the 1980s. I had a prospective client who wanted custom accounting software. I gave him a quote, and he said his nephew offered to do the deed for a fraction of the price, but thanks anyway. I just smiled and thanked him for his time. Not six month later he calls me and explains that his nephew has brought his operations to its knees and could I please come in after all. He went on to become one of my very best and most loyal clients.

So I guess what I'm saying is, either do something else or just go along with it and be in it for the long game. Be diplomatic and kind, but firm and clear. Eventually ... reality will interfere in the form of hearing loss, member loss, ennui or some combination of the above, and then they know where to find you ;-)
Since I no longer directly fly the sound, they will find me, during worship, in the fellowship hall downstairs. I will come up when I hear offering announced, and make preparations to record the sermon - which I still value as the best part of the service.

Fortunately, since this is church and not workplace, that is the best I can do for self-preservation. My wife feels that this is her spiritual home for at least the next few years, and won't rechurch with me. We both derive greater understanding of God and the Bible, so we both have our ways of dealing with the overly loud worship sound.

Last edited by TheGrandK-Man; 02-09-2018 at 01:24 PM..
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