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Old 02-04-2018, 07:39 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,199 posts, read 2,829,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
true fundy reading and thinking. You atheist have so much more in common with fundamental Christianity then you even realize.
Rubbish, pneuma.

I'm really tired of hearing this line of guff ... that just because we don't revere these moronic Biblical stories and see the actions of this tyrannical God as anything less than wondrous, suddenly, we're on the same plane as fundamentalists.

Nonsense.

Poppycock.

Balderdash.

Those who think that we're "just as bad" as fundamentalists are only seeing what they want to see and, frankly, just don't get it.

I've said it a million times that an omniscient, omnipotent God could have put the "forbidden fruit" anywhere in the universe -- assuming God *had* to put it *anywhere.*

But instead he rigged the entire Fall of Man by placing it right under Adam's and Eve's noses then did the absolute worst thing you can do with the psychology of obedience. It's like giving a child a closed box, telling the child not to peek inside, then walking away. How long do you think it will take before the child peeks?

Not only that, but if you read the Bible story carefully, you'll notice that Eve hadn't even been created yet when God gave Adam the warning about the forbidden fruit. Yeah, that's right ... Eve didn't know ANYTHING about that fruit. She had no reason whatsoever to *not* eat one. After all, how can someone in a state of non-existence know what rules she is supposed to follow once she is created?

And, of course, given God's all-knowing character, it only stands to reason that God knew from the outset that Eve would eat the fruit then give one to Adam to eat, as well. If God truly wanted mere obedience, he wouldn't have put the fruit where he did nor would he have given only Adam the warning ...

... and for crying out loud, God wouldn't have allowed a talking Satanic serpent to walk around in paradise where everything is supposed to be safe and secure.

To claim this is a "fundamentalist" way of looking at the Bible is ridiculousness personified. Can you honestly find fault with our logic without resorting to non-Biblical rationalizations? I very much doubt it.

Of course, God going positively ape over this one act of disobedience thereby bringing sin into the world even though he hates sin ... is, in itself, the epitome of stupid. It's essentially saying that Adam and Eve *forced* God to allow sin to exist, and God couldn't do anything about it. "Aaah, I hate sin, but now I have to allow it into the world. All of my infinite power cannot stop it. Ahhhcch!" Then it gets even worse when God blames humanity for sin.

It would seem that all of humanity got its start under the tender auspices of "blaming the victim."

That's what the Bible actually says -- and it doesn't matter whether you can "see" it or not. It's there in black and white. There's absolutely *nothing* fundamental about interpreting the story in precisely the way logic would demand. Generally, it's the religious fundamentalists who *can't* see this story for the rigged trap that it is -- because they rationalize away all of God's stupid and immoral mistakes and instead blame it all on us.

Any being -- including God -- that is not subject to criticism will invariably become a tyrant.
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
13,564 posts, read 6,002,050 times
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All of which is why the fundamentalist reading of the material, theist OR atheist makes No sense whatsoever.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:11 PM
 
2,795 posts, read 1,591,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Examine your assumptions.

Why would you think it was God who was the insane one?

These are things humans built.

It's easy to not believe in God until you want to blame him for all your problems.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:38 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,199 posts, read 2,829,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
These are things humans built.

It's easy to not believe in God until you want to blame him for all your problems.
Heh, actually not believing in God made my problems a bit more bearable -- because I *couldn't* blame my problems on God.

I could rest easy in the knowledge that my problems were not caused by a malicious or incompetent deity who either can't help or won't help -- and instead sits up there in Heaven, living large in paradise, watching impassively with folded arms as I suffer.

I have no one to shake my fist at. No one to scream "WHY!?!" at. No one from whom I can expect rescue.

There is a peace in that knowledge -- understanding that I don't have to pray, beg, and grovel to a god in the hopes that he'll pick me out of countless millions of others who suffer and help ME above all else who are in even greater need than I.

And then, when the miracle doesn't come, bashing my proverbial head against a Bible wondering what sin I committed, wondering what I have done to anger god so much, wondering why my prayers haven't been answered.

Yeah, there is a lot of peace, indeed, when you *can't* blame your problems on God.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:49 PM
 
35,293 posts, read 23,351,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Rubbish, pneuma.

I'm really tired of hearing this line of guff ... that just because we don't revere these moronic Biblical stories and see the actions of this tyrannical God as anything less than wondrous, suddenly, we're on the same plane as fundamentalists.
Sorry, Shirina, but you cannot consider God tyrannical without reading and believing the Bible literally and infallibly as fundamentalists do. Christians follow the God revealed as Love by Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
All of which is why the fundamentalist reading of the material, theist OR atheist makes No sense whatsoever.
Amen! They both treat the Bible literally and infallibly.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:45 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,199 posts, read 2,829,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry, Shirina, but you cannot consider God tyrannical without reading and believing the Bible literally and infallibly as fundamentalists do. Christians follow the God revealed as Love by Jesus.
The question still remains: If Jesus is so loving, why am I in so much pain? Why has my life been reduced to merely waiting to die before I even hit 30?

Sorry, Mystic, but you know that I agree with a lot of things you have to say -- right up to the point where you start inserting Christianity. There is absolutely ZERO evidence for the existence of Jesus, Yahweh, or to believe a single word of the Bible.

It's the same fallacious leap that Creationists use when talking about the origin of the universe.

"The universe had to have been created by an intelligence, therefore, that intelligence is without a doubt Yahweh, God of the Hebrews!" Of course, how they got from point A to point W without traveling through all the other points is a BIG mystery. I call it "teleportation logic." They just magically teleport their premise 2 or 3 points down the line in the hopes that everyone will ignore all the steps they missed in between.

Inserting Christianity into theories involving mass consciousness and the like jumps a few steps and I can't ignore all the points in between that were ignored.

In any event, however you or anyone else describes a personalized god, here I am, still suffering. Where's all of that fantabulous love? I'm not seeing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Amen! They both treat the Bible literally and infallibly.
Aye, they do. I know you don't, which is why I leave you alone and don't go into "attack dog" mode when I respond to you. Like I said, you and I can have a lot of general agreements. It's when you get into the whole Jesus thing where I have to part company. I'm not even sure why you think agape love even needs a Jesus figure.
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Old Yesterday, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
4,839 posts, read 2,115,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
R

Not only that, but if you read the Bible story carefully, you'll notice that Eve hadn't even been created yet when God gave Adam the warning about the forbidden fruit. Yeah, that's right ... Eve didn't know ANYTHING about that fruit. She had no reason whatsoever to *not* eat one. After all, how can someone in a state of non-existence know what rules she is supposed to follow once she is created?
You know, I was wondering about that a while back (but forgot to check). Be interesting to see how the fundies tap dance around that one.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,199 posts, read 2,829,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
You know, I was wondering about that a while back (but forgot to check). Be interesting to see how the fundies tap dance around that one.
The Bible, just like all religions, were written by males who lived in heavy-handed patriarchal societies. I say "heavy-handed" because all three Abrahamic societies viewed women as both inconsequential and next to worthless. Everyone prayed for sons -- daughters were mere bargaining chips to be married away to secure political and financial alliances. They had but two purposes and *only* two purposes: to give their husbands a male heir and to provide the husband with comforts from dinners to sex.

It really doesn't surprise me at all that the entire female gender is treated as an afterthought. The Bible clearly says that women were not created for their own sake -- the way Adam was. Women were not created to be independent, self-reliant, strong, intelligent, or to wield any kind of power. Women were created to be baby factories and servants, utterly devoid of any sort of value.

Take the 10 Commandments, for example -- or the 10th Commandment specifically. Note what it says:

"You shall not covet your neighbour's house, you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is your neighbour's.”

Note the bolded part. Yeah, the 10 Commandments were written BY men FOR men. Wives (women) were listed among your neighbor's POSSESSIONS. You shall not covet your neighbor's WIFE .... nor anything THAT IS YOUR NEIGHBOR'S.

I mean, women are listed right there with oxen and asses, for Christ's sake. It can't get any more obviously misogynistic than this. Obviously, it can be safely assumed that the other 9 Commandments are written for men by men, as well. What's even more telling is how the 10th Commandment doesn't seem to work in reverse -- that women are forbidden to covet their neighbor's husband. Oh, but the reason for that is obvious: it's because a husband isn't the possession of a wife -- HE isn't something that can be taken or stolen by a greedy woman. Therefore, there's no need to restrict the lust of a woman because women are so far beneath contempt that God doesn't even bother writing rules for them. Well, unless she's menstruating and is then instructed to go sit outside somewhere until she's done.

Look at the story of Lot. God says that he'd spare the Sadom and Gomorrah if Abraham can find just one righteous MAN. There could be 50 BILLION righteous women living there, but it wouldn't matter to God. It has to be a man. Then, when God destroys the two cities ... he does it because, if you take the fundy view of it, all of the MEN of the city turned out to Lot's house to rape the two angels.

How many women were present in that mob hoping to rape the angels?

Oh right ... NONE.

But that don't matter. Nope. Not when you're dealing with a misogynistic society that wrote a religion that reflects it's own values. So the two cities had to be destroyed -- and all the innocent women and children went up in flames along with the guilty men.

Funny that -- how God's rules and God's morality directly and carefully ensure that the pre-existing morality and value system of Hebrew society -- and Middle Eastern society in general -- are pain-stakingly preserved. All the Bible does is reinforce the moral system that already existed.

This is why you see slavery being condoned and many of the dietary restrictions in place. None of this is NEW, none of it revolutionary, none of it tries to bring about a fair, egalitarian, free, and actually LOVING society. Nope. It does just the opposite.

God *could* have revolutionized morality right there and then by raising women up to be the equal of men, making slavery a cardinal sin, abolishing the stigma women received if they weren't virgins -- thus requiring the rapist to marry his victim since no man would marry a non-virgin, and a massive laundry list of other immoral and, frankly, disgusting cultural traditions that existed 4500 years ago.

But instead, we get a book supposedly inspired by God that does nothing but REINFORCE the flagrant immoral practices of the time -- up to and including BLOOD SACRIFICES!!!!!

Why, for shyte's sake, can't Christians, Jews, and Muslims SEE this? WHY?

I mean, seriously, how can anyone believe that Almighty God who HATES sin with every fiber of his existence -- give sin a free pass because he doesn't want to *ahem* "disrupt" the existing culture? How can anyone actually buy into such a weak and pathetic rationalization? "Oh, but that's how they did things back then ..."

So what. God had a chance to end damn near 5,000 years of oppressive slavery before it even began -- and I believe that if God were both real AND loving, that's precisely what he WOULD have done. And not be a damn milquetoast by saying, "Well, uh, okay, uh, I won't take your slaves away and uhm ... you can keep treating women like chattel and possessions and err ... you can keep marrying little girls ... and no, I won't come down too hard on rapists, guys, since I know you have to get your rocks off SOMEhow, uh, yeah ..."

That's the God these people worship -- yeah YOU, Christians, for those who are reading this. I know there are good Christians, but no matter how good you might be, you still believe in this obviously manmade guff, and it's really too bad that you've been taken by it all.

So, the botton line means that it comes as absolutely NO surprise that Eve was literally created as an afterthought. The fact that God waited so long before creating Eve is pretty telling. Not only that, but the fact that God only gave Adam the warning about the fruit proves definitively in my opinion that God never had any actual intention to create a woman ... AT ALL.

Well ... at least according to the mythology. However, if you peer behind the scenes, behind the Wizard's curtain, if you will, what REALLY happened is that the authors of the Bible, so caught up in their male-dominated society, actually FORGOT to include women in the Creation story.

The author of Genesis had his fake God create Adam -- and that was all that mattered. So the author kept going with Adam, cruising along letting Adam name all the animals while God laid out the rules -- and a long time passed. Days, months, perhaps years given how long it would take to actually name all the animals ...

And then one day the author was sitting at his workbench wracked with writers' block. He was fresh out of ideas! Or, more accurately, he was fresh out of other religions' creation myths he could plagiarize from. And as he sat there, a bit frustrated, his penis twitched. And then again. Oh crap, he was getting an erection! What a horrible time ...

Oh my God! the author exclaimed in his own mind. "I forgot to add women to the fuggin story! Damn it! And I don't want to have to go back and rewrite it, etiher, because papyrus scroll paper and ink is bloody expensive for a desert Bedouin goatherder like myself!"

So the author simply adds Eve to the story sometime later as the afterthought she undoubtedly was. He pays no heed to the fact that he now has a character in his story that wasn't present, or even in existence, during a very pivotal moment: when God warned Adam not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet, because he plagiarized his story from the Greek myth of Pandora and the forbidden box, Eve had to be the one to muck it up for everyone -- never mind the glaring plot inconsistency that makes her innocent of any real wrong-doing.

Because the woman not only has to be responsible for the Fall of Man, she also has to be symbolized as the temptress, seductress, ****, and weak-willed creature she is by tempting Adam with the forbidden fruit. Right? Yep.

Now, I'm not at all a big "Feminazi." I'm not one who runs around championing the cause of womanhood, whining incessantly about the unfair treatment of my gender. However, when the misogyny and woman-hate is so blatantly and obviously displayed as it is in the Bible, Torah, and Qu'ran, yeah, it raises my hackles a bit.

Why ANY self-respecting woman would buy into this tripe is unfathomable to me. And yet the only Bible verse the fundies, as well as mainstream Christians cling to is the one ordering husbands to love their wives as they love Jesus -- or some such. So what.

That doesn't absolve the woman from having to be a baby machine and full-time cook and pleasure slave to her husband. Unfortunately, in this backward nation of the United States of Jesus, there are STILL more than enough preachers who rail about the mastery of men over women; they still complain about women wearing pants, having jobs, and failing to adhere to gender roles that were defined by illiterate, ignorant, utterly clueless desert tribal shamans almost 5,000 years ago; some even claim that it's impossible for a husband to rape his wife because the wife has no authority to refuse sex to her husband! Recently I even heard a preacher screaming at his megachurch congregation about how he made it from rags to riches with no help from women and how they were completely unnecessary because the Bible was "written by men, for men, and it's all about men."

So, to reiterate, there's absolutely nothing shocking about the treatment of Eve in the Genesis story, nothing overly surprising when the 10 Commandments places women among oxen, asses, and other material possessions.

It's all just par for the course when dealing with ancient, primitive cultures -- and equally primitive religions.

Last edited by Shirina; Yesterday at 07:18 AM.. Reason: Somehow I wrote the first draft without mentioning women at all -- so I went back and added women. As an afterthought.
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Old Today, 08:01 AM
 
191 posts, read 173,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post

god and god'ss character has nothing to do with it.

Unfortunately, this part is wrong. The character has everything to do with it, as this is what followers fear and worship. The trouble is, the god (in all religions) is just a sockpuppet (or perhaps Mr Ed, the horse) that says whatever the creators what it to say, and the rubes fall for it, and tell their progeny that it is "God". This sockpuppet gets passed down from generation to generation. Then you get factions that make their own copy of the original sockpuppet (denominations) and have it say what -they- want it to say.

This is one of many reasons why I am no longer a believer.
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Old Today, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
13,564 posts, read 6,002,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkingBlythe View Post
Unfortunately, this part is wrong. The character has everything to do with it, as this is what followers fear and worship. The trouble is, the god (in all religions) is just a sockpuppet (or perhaps Mr Ed, the horse) that says whatever the creators what it to say, and the rubes fall for it, and tell their progeny that it is "God". This sockpuppet gets passed down from generation to generation. Then you get factions that make their own copy of the original sockpuppet (denominations) and have it say what -they- want it to say.

This is one of many reasons why I am no longer a believer.
Your assumption is that there is no ACTUAL deity whose character is being falsified. he assumption of the statement you quote is that there IS. Apples and oranges.T
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