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Old 03-10-2018, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I heard it argued that Zoroastrianism with the more dual aspect of two rival gods, rather than the hebrew view that Satan was at times a sort of saboteur of God's works (though sometimes he looks like God's gofor) might have influenced Gnostic duality, which was of course declared heretical.
Jewish scholar Alan F. Segal, in his book 'Two Powers in Heaven' addresses what in the second century AD became viewed as a heresy within Judiasm, the idea, based on certain Old Testament passages which appear to present two complimentary powers in heaven, two Yahwehs, for instance, Genesis 19:24 in which Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh in heaven (two Yahweh's), and Daniel 7:13 which portrays two divine figures- the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man.

He says that from the Rabbinic perspective, both Christianity and gnosticism were virulent and vituperative varieties of ''two powers'' heresy, but the heresy with a complementary divine economy arose earlier than the heresy with an opposing one. He says that the evidence which he previously mentioned gives limited and disinterested support to the church father's contention that gnosticism arose later than Christianity, but it further implies that both Christianity and gnosticism arose out of Hellenistic and apocalyptic Judaism by sharing heretical traditions of scripture interpretation which speculated on a principal angelic mediator of God.

He states however that that is his conclusion and that he is not a specialist in the area of gnosticism.

So while gnosticism wasn't full blown until the second century A.D. it may have had its roots in Hellenistic and apocalyptic Judaism and Christianity. Or the roots may also extend to Asian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Persian and Syrian pagan religions as well.
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Old 03-11-2018, 05:16 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jewish scholar Alan F. Segal, in his book 'Two Powers in Heaven' addresses what in the second century AD became viewed as a heresy within Judiasm, the idea, based on certain Old Testament passages which appear to present two complimentary powers in heaven, two Yahwehs, for instance, Genesis 19:24 in which Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh in heaven (two Yahweh's), and Daniel 7:13 which portrays two divine figures- the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man.

He says that from the Rabbinic perspective, both Christianity and gnosticism were virulent and vituperative varieties of ''two powers'' heresy, but the heresy with a complementary divine economy arose earlier than the heresy with an opposing one. He says that the evidence which he previously mentioned gives limited and disinterested support to the church father's contention that gnosticism arose later than Christianity, but it further implies that both Christianity and gnosticism arose out of Hellenistic and apocalyptic Judaism by sharing heretical traditions of scripture interpretation which speculated on a principal angelic mediator of God.

He states however that that is his conclusion and that he is not a specialist in the area of gnosticism.

So while gnosticism wasn't full blown until the second century A.D. it may have had its roots in Hellenistic and apocalyptic Judaism and Christianity. Or the roots may also extend to Asian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Persian and Syrian pagan religions as well.
Segal was not a Jewish scholar...
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Old 03-11-2018, 05:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Segal was not a Jewish scholar...
Yes he was.

Alan F. Segal (August 2, 1945 – February 13, 2011) was a scholar of ancient religions, specializing in Judaism's relationship to Christianity. Segal was a distinguished scholar, author, and speaker, self-described as a "believing Jew and twentieth-century humanist."[1]:281 Segal was one of the first modern scholars to write extensively on the influences of Judaism (including Second Temple Rabbinic texts, Merkabah mysticism, and Jewish apocalypticism) on Paul of Damascus.

Segal was born in Worcester, Massachusetts. He attended Amherst College (B.A., 1967), Brandeis University (M.A., 1969), Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion (Bachelor of Hebrew Letters, 1971), and Yale University (M.A., 1971; M.Phil., 1973; and Ph.D., 1975). At the time of his retirement, Segal was Professor Emeritus of Religion and Ingeborg Rennert Professor Emeritus of Judaic Studies at Barnard College and held a concurrent appointment as Adjunct Professor of Scripture at Union Theological Seminary. He had also taught at Princeton University and the University of Toronto.

egal gave conference presentations and lectures internationally. He was a founding member of the Society of Biblical Literature program unit on Early Jewish and Christian Mysticism, and the SBL program unit on Divine Mediators in Antiquity. In 1988, he was the first Jewish member of the Society for New Testament Studies to address the society. He was elected a member of the American Society for the Study of Religion and the first American living outside Canada to be elected President of the Canadian Society for Biblical Studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_F._Segal
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:10 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes he was.

Alan F. Segal (August 2, 1945 – February 13, 2011) was a scholar of ancient religions, specializing in Judaism's relationship to Christianity. Segal was a distinguished scholar, author, and speaker, self-described as a "believing Jew and twentieth-century humanist."[1]:281 Segal was one of the first modern scholars to write extensively on the influences of Judaism (including Second Temple Rabbinic texts, Merkabah mysticism, and Jewish apocalypticism) on Paul of Damascus.

Segal was born in Worcester, Massachusetts. He attended Amherst College (B.A., 1967), Brandeis University (M.A., 1969), Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion (Bachelor of Hebrew Letters, 1971), and Yale University (M.A., 1971; M.Phil., 1973; and Ph.D., 1975). At the time of his retirement, Segal was Professor Emeritus of Religion and Ingeborg Rennert Professor Emeritus of Judaic Studies at Barnard College and held a concurrent appointment as Adjunct Professor of Scripture at Union Theological Seminary. He had also taught at Princeton University and the University of Toronto.

egal gave conference presentations and lectures internationally. He was a founding member of the Society of Biblical Literature program unit on Early Jewish and Christian Mysticism, and the SBL program unit on Divine Mediators in Antiquity. In 1988, he was the first Jewish member of the Society for New Testament Studies to address the society. He was elected a member of the American Society for the Study of Religion and the first American living outside Canada to be elected President of the Canadian Society for Biblical Studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_F._Segal
No...He was not...If he was, he was a deceived Jew...
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
No...He was not...If he was, he was a deceived Jew...
He was a Jew. You apparently don't understand that he was not himself promoting the 'two powers in heaven' belief but was treating it as a heresy that existed within Judaism.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-12-2018 at 09:56 AM.. Reason: Removed a comma.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Zoroastrianism, in spite of its small current number of adherents, has played a huge role in the study of comparative religion. Not only was it a cohort of the ancient Vedic Hinduism, but also had a huge influence on the development of Judaism and Christianity.

This part of the site has complete online editions of the Sacred Books of the East's Zoroastrian texts: the three volume Avesta series, as well as the five volume Pahlavi series. - Zoroastrian Sacred Texts
Very interesting subject, I keep telling everyone just how many links Judaism, and Christianity are found in Hinduism, and people look at me funny but it's the truth.


There are way too many links with Zoroastrianism and Christianity to deny their common links with the truths found in Judaism that set both of them in motion, and it is these links that bring all men back to the same region, back to the same people, and back to the founder of these religions in Tammuz.


Everything to do with Christianity is teaching Tammuz, and we find the links of Tammuz all over other religions from Israel worshipping Tammuz and calling him the God of Israel, to Christians doing the exact same thing as the ten tribes.


It all goes back to the grandson of Noah,'' Tammuz,'' the very first resurrected man, supposedly. It doesn't matter if you look to Babylon, India, Egypt, or even America, we all have so much to do with Tammuz while we like to call him Jesus or some other name, when our hands teach his traditions, he is Tammuz.


But the truth is the truth and the truth was told to Adam and shared to Noah and his sons, and so we find truth in every religion we look to, even if it isn't the same truth we have, it still comes from the same source.


Just as we can find the story of Noah all over the world, we find pieces of the truth all over the world and Noah had very many names, EVEN in the Americas before Jesus, there was the story of Noah, and from Noah, Nimrod became that very first resurrected that everyone knew, ''Tammuz,'' the branch from heaven that was cut down and now lives again.'


It is simply like Eve said,'' BEHOLD, God has given me a man,'' and Eve meant that she had born a son who would conquer death and she thought Cain was just that man, and now the grandson of Noah would do the same thing. He dies and his MOTHER/WIFE gets pregnant and proclaims it to be Nimrod resurrected and so he bears the name,'' Tammuz.''


The name of the Babylonian Messiah can never change, and so where you find the name ,'' Tammuz,'' you find the pagans laying dead at 6 p.m, on the 6th day in the 6th month in the 6th year for their worship of Tammuz, just as Christians keep all the Holy days of Tammuz but call him Jesus.

Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 03-12-2018 at 10:37 AM..
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:18 PM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
He was a Jew. You apparently don't understand that he was not himself promoting the 'two powers in heaven' belief but was treating it as a heresy that existed within Judaism.
He was a Christian...
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
He was a Jew. You apparently don't understand that he was not himself promoting the 'two powers in heaven' belief but was treating it as a heresy that existed within Judaism.
What comes to mind is that there were two schools of thought in Judaism, the Pharisees with a last days scenario of the messiah and the graves opening and the Sadducees who (as Bible -readers will know) say there is no resurrection.

Oddly while the Sadducees were the wealthy, conservative and Bible -literalist types, they seem to have been the more Hellenized sect and the right arm of the Romans - as no doubt they were of the herodians and the Hasmoneans before them

The pharisees while having got some sort of resurrection idea from somewhere, were always intolerant of foreign influence, let alone rule. It doesn't quite fit then that Jews coming from Persia with a headful of Zoroastrianism would result in a heaven and hell of the Christian type, which the sadducees didn't accept. Though they must have accepted Satan as an opponent of God - and That (like Genesis) could have been Persian influence.

Your scholarship as, again, impressive, but there is more to do than just cut and paste an authority. There are some questions arising..You know how I feel about "This is what i say, and you must accept it because I have a Phd."

Certainly though, while Judaism has a Satan and Phariseeism had a resurrection at the last days (Christianity seems to have a dual idea of solid -spiritual resurrection and judgement at death, and a Last trump opening of graves, and it doesn't seem to bother them that they have two irreconcilable resurrection -beliefs), they are quite unlike the Satan and hellfire concepts of Christianity which come from a lot of sources (Zoroastrianism, perhaps one, via Gnostic duality) and we ought no to back -engineer Christian doctrinal concepts onto 1st c. Judaism.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-12-2018 at 05:14 PM..
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Old 03-12-2018, 07:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
What comes to mind is that there were two schools of thought in Judaism, the Pharisees with a last days scenario of the messiah and the graves opening and the Sadducees who (as Bible -readers will know) say there is no resurrection.

Oddly while the Sadducees were the wealthy, conservative and Bible -literalist types, they seem to have been the more Hellenized sect and the right arm of the Romans - as no doubt they were of the herodians and the Hasmoneans before them

The pharisees while having got some sort of resurrection idea from somewhere, were always intolerant of foreign influence, let alone rule. It doesn't quite fit then that Jews coming from Persia with a headful of Zoroastrianism would result in a heaven and hell of the Christian type, which the sadducees didn't accept. Though they must have accepted Satan as an opponent of God - and That (like Genesis) could have been Persian influence.

Your scholarship as, again, impressive, but there is more to do than just cut and paste an authority. There are some questions arising..You know how I feel about "This is what i say, and you must accept it because I have a Phd."

Certainly though, while Judaism has a Satan and Phariseeism had a resurrection at the last days (Christianity seems to have a dual idea of solid -spiritual resurrection and judgement at death, and a Last trump opening of graves, and it doesn't seem to bother them that they have two irreconcilable resurrection -beliefs), they are quite unlike the Satan and hellfire concepts of Christianity which come from a lot of sources (Zoroastrianism, perhaps one, via Gnostic duality) and we ought no to back -engineer Christian doctrinal concepts onto 1st c. Judaism.
Don't confuse the differing views of Christians with what the Biblical writers themselves had to say about a subject. Despite the differing views among Jews, and the differing views among Christians, the issue for Christians is what did the New Testament writers mean with regard to what they wrote? While there are those Christians who think that resurrection refers to a non-physical non-bodily resurrection, the New Testament writers, including Paul, as I showed in the other thread, understood resurrection to refer to a resurrection of the body that died.

You say that Christian doctrinal concepts should not be back-engineered onto first century Judaism. But the doctrines of Christianity are rooted in the Old Testament. Paul, being a pharisee, had the same view of resurrection as the pharisees did.

And while you may not care about appeals to authority, scholars have no problem quoting other scholars to support their own views. Neither do I have a problem with quoting scholars (who know a lot more about it than I do) to back up what I say. Advances in knowledge come about in part from the work of others who have come before. I have however shown from the Bible that resurrection refers to bodily resurrection. It refers to a reversal of physical death in which the body that died is raised in a changed state of being. And as I have gone over this in that other thread I'm not interested in getting into another discussion about it.

With regard to Zoroastrianism, I'll point out once again that since the oldest extant documents concerning Zoroastrianism are much later than the New Testament era, no dogmatic assertion can be made that what we know about Zorastrianism now is what that religion originally taught. It could very well be that Zorastrianism was influenced by both Judaism and Christianity rather than the other way around.

From where did Judaism get its ideas of resurrection? Why could not the idea of resurrection have arisen from within Judaism itself instead of coming from elsewhere?
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:48 PM
 
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Possible, but it's rather persuasive an idea to me that they got the idea from somewhere. It's significant though that they thought in terms of a resurrection to a solid -body life here on earth and not in some spirit realm, for example like Egyptian religion had it.

I might also mention that I think that the gospel -writers were Christians and Greek Paulinist Christians, too. Which wasn't quite the same thing it became later on, with a heaven, hell, Jesus as God etc.
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