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Old 03-12-2018, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Possible, but it's rather persuasive an idea to me that they got the idea from somewhere. It's significant though that they thought in terms of a resurrection to a solid -body life here on earth and not in some spirit realm, for example like Egyptian religion had it.

I might also mention that I think that the gospel -writers were Christians and Greek Paulinist Christians, too. Which wasn't quite the same thing it became later on, with a heaven, hell, Jesus as God etc.
Well . . . yes. Of course the gospel writers, as well as all the NT writers were Christians. Jesus as God though was not a later belief. He was understood to be God from the beginning of the church. And contrary to popular belief, all four gospels present Jesus as God. I'm not going to go into detail about that in this post because I'm too tired. If you want, let me know and I will back up that statement later on in a different post.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:50 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
No...He was not...If he was, he was a deceived Jew...
Seriously?

Where does this deep-seated human stubbornness come from?

You sound like you wouldn't mind calling him an Uncle Tom just to make yourself feel better.

Maybe what he was, was a Jewish person with his own opinion and efforts.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:54 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
He was a Christian...
Christianity and Islam are denominations of very liberal (in the sense of not being anti-Jesus as Last Messiah) forms of Judaism (or reinterpretations of Judaism), so maybe he was both.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Seriously?

Where does this deep-seated human stubbornness come from?

You sound like you wouldn't mind calling him an Uncle Tom just to make yourself feel better.

Maybe what he was, was a Jewish person with his own opinion and efforts.
2000 years of lawless Christians persecuting and killing Jews because they wouldn't assimilate to being Gentiles. It seems that Christianity was under the impression that they should destroy the Jewish nation, and whatever they had to do in persecuting and killing people for following the ways of Messiah, they did. A Jew would practically be a traitor for EVEN READING the New Testament after 2000 years of unimaginable persecution, torture, being deemed as sub human, being deemed as beasts, as apes, and not even allowed to own land in many cases. Not only did the Christian persecute the Jew, the church made sure that no Gentile would come under the promise given to the gentiles who came being grafted under the promise of Ephraim. The church made sure that no Gentile followed the ways of Messiah as to become one with the Jew, and a co heir.


2000 years of the most HORRENDOUS crimes against humanity in the world's persecution against the Jews because they wouldn't stop following God's commandments.


Now you say a Jew is stubborn because he wont assimilate to your way of thinking?

HOW DARE HE NOT BELIEVE in the Christian idea of a Jewish Messiah gone wrong. 2000 years of Constantine's mentality right up to Martin Luther and those stubborn Jews who wouldn't kill themselves, right up until Hitler uses the words of Martin Luther and the Anti-Semitic mentality of Constantine.


Those stubborn Jews, why wont they just kill theyselves?

Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 03-16-2018 at 01:00 PM..
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:47 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
2000 years of lawless Christians persecuting and killing Jews because they wouldn't assimilate to being Gentiles. It seems that Christianity was under the impression that they should destroy the Jewish nation, and whatever they had to do in persecuting and killing people for following the ways of Messiah, they did. A Jew would practically be a traitor for EVEN READING the New Testament after 2000 years of unimaginable persecution, torture, being deemed as sub human, being deemed as beasts, as apes, and not even allowed to own land in many cases. Not only did the Christian persecute the Jew, the church made sure that no Gentile would come under the promise given to the gentiles who came being grafted under the promise of Ephraim. The church made sure that no Gentile followed the ways of Messiah as to become one with the Jew, and a co heir.


2000 years of the most HORRENDOUS crimes against humanity in the world's persecution against the Jews because they wouldn't stop following God's commandments.


Now you say a Jew is stubborn because he wont assimilate to your way of thinking?

HOW DARE HE NOT BELIEVE in the Christian idea of a Jewish Messiah gone wrong. 2000 years of Constantine's mentality right up to Martin Luther and those stubborn Jews who wouldn't kill themselves, right up until Hitler uses the words of Martin Luther and the Anti-Semitic mentality of Constantine.


Those stubborn Jews, why wont they just kill theyselves?
Partial segregation is deeply tribalist. If you read some broader history you will find that there were plenty lawless Jewish colonists also (killing Christians because they wouldn't assimilate into the "Gentile/Jew" dichotomy, or just killing Romans for having won wars against them, etc).

Christians were likewise (although in their myth, Jews wouldn't just be heretics, but physical traitors).
In fact, their "foundations" history is basically about how both Romans and Jews persecuted them to the death. They simply got the upper hand because they didn't segregate themselves.

The Greco-Roman Europeans also viewed many other peoples (such as Africans and Gypsies) as sub-human, as wild beasts, as no better than apes, and wouldn't allow various people to own land (such as women, or how the Spartans treated the hill-people Helots around them).

To be a zealot is to be treacherous to the human race (that includes the Christians, Muslims, and Jains who do so). As you do, many Christians and Muslims think that one of their kind would "practically be a traitor" for "even reading" some hypnotic writings from another religion or denomination.

Both the Christians and Muslims promise each other and the Jews that they will become co-heirs if they accept their respective special myths (or sometimes even for just being monotheist). So you (and modern Judaism) would be destroying that promise of allowed unity. But as it stands, any Christian is allowed to follow the rules laid out in the Tanakh (but be they Christian or syncretic polytheist still, they just wouldn't choose to).

The Christians say that they were only persecuted for following their non-affecting precepts also, but we know that is not true. People are persecuted because they are feared (segregated growth) or hated (speaking/acting against the norms or being portrayed that way).

I was saying that Richard1965 had "human stubbornness" just like other zealous and stubborn people (of which there are various and different reactionary types) because they wouldn't accept the reality that a self-proclaimed Jew won't assimilate to their way of thinking.

The gypsies, homosexuals, and Jehova Witnesses were also deemed stubborn by Hitler, I'm sure.

No one should be killing themselves or each other, we should all be striving for further understanding. Especially beyond what our tribalist reactions/instincts and family traditions allow (which is why Hilter and his ilk were so hateful, ardent, and weak).
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Well . . . yes. Of course the gospel writers, as well as all the NT writers were Christians. Jesus as God though was not a later belief. He was understood to be God from the beginning of the church. And contrary to popular belief, all four gospels present Jesus as God. I'm not going to go into detail about that in this post because I'm too tired. If you want, let me know and I will back up that statement later on in a different post.
I can't altogether agree with that. The Gospels show an initial man (Davidic messiah) that was occupied by the holy spirit (God or Shekinah) at baptism. The idea being to rubber stamp Jesus as the messiah, not John.
The spirit then drove, or in Matthew and Luke. more politely, 'Led', the man Jesus into the desert, and on the cross left him. This is not the same thing as the Virgin birth that came later (I am sure) in Matthew and Luke, where Jesus was inhabited by the spirit of God from the start And of course the spirit could not leave Jesus on the cross, or at least not permanently, so the body had to lie there until the small hours of Sunday and the body sat up and walked through to door, which was opened not to allow Jesus to get out but for the women to look in.

Paul's Davidic messiah was not the Holy Spirit itself (indeed, that idea might have been blasphemy to him, as it apparently was to the Sanhedrin, knowing through prophetic inspiration that 'Son of God' merely meant messiah and not the Shekinah present in Jesus as later theology. That is, in actual fact it would not have been a blasphemy unless the Sanhedrin were thinking in terms of post Constantine christian doctrine.

Or at least that of Matthew, Luke and John, where Jesus is still a man but no more than a parchment skin of a man through which God's actual presence shines like a hazard lamp.
The difference is that John known of no nativity, let alone a virgin Birth. For him just as for the others, the Holy Spirit descended at the baptism. It was still God present but not born with God present.
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,309 posts, read 4,257,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Partial segregation is deeply tribalist. If you read some broader history you will find that there were plenty lawless Jewish colonists also (killing Christians because they wouldn't assimilate into the "Gentile/Jew" dichotomy, or just killing Romans for having won wars against them, etc).

Christians were likewise (although in their myth, Jews wouldn't just be heretics, but physical traitors).
In fact, their "foundations" history is basically about how both Romans and Jews persecuted them to the death. They simply got the upper hand because they didn't segregate themselves.

The Greco-Roman Europeans also viewed many other peoples (such as Africans and Gypsies) as sub-human, as wild beasts, as no better than apes, and wouldn't allow various people to own land (such as women, or how the Spartans treated the hill-people Helots around them).

To be a zealot is to be treacherous to the human race (that includes the Christians, Muslims, and Jains who do so). As you do, many Christians and Muslims think that one of their kind would "practically be a traitor" for "even reading" some hypnotic writings from another religion or denomination.

Both the Christians and Muslims promise each other and the Jews that they will become co-heirs if they accept their respective special myths (or sometimes even for just being monotheist). So you (and modern Judaism) would be destroying that promise of allowed unity. But as it stands, any Christian is allowed to follow the rules laid out in the Tanakh (but be they Christian or syncretic polytheist still, they just wouldn't choose to).

The Christians say that they were only persecuted for following their non-affecting precepts also, but we know that is not true. People are persecuted because they are feared (segregated growth) or hated (speaking/acting against the norms or being portrayed that way).

I was saying that Richard1965 had "human stubbornness" just like other zealous and stubborn people (of which there are various and different reactionary types) because they wouldn't accept the reality that a self-proclaimed Jew won't assimilate to their way of thinking.

The gypsies, homosexuals, and Jehova Witnesses were also deemed stubborn by Hitler, I'm sure.

No one should be killing themselves or each other, we should all be striving for further understanding. Especially beyond what our tribalist reactions/instincts and family traditions allow (which is why Hilter and his ilk were so hateful, ardent, and weak).

The reality is simple.


Jews remain the only people in the world who practice the religion of God, and the religion of the Messiah. Jews don't need to change at all, they are already Israel, already practicing the ways of the God of the bible and for 2000 years people saw them as stubborn, and if that was their only redeeming quality, it is enough. Their stubbornness is that they wont assimilate and their by destroy themselves.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:54 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
The reality is simple.


Jews remain the only people in the world who practice the religion of God, and the religion of the Messiah.


O.k. sure. You don't sound just like a fundie Christian or Muslim at all. *shrug* The very concept of a father who hates when his creations loving their bigger "magical" sisters and brothers and is jealous of his own created "magical/supernatural" children (or jealous of imaginations of men) is rather Saturn-like. I am by no means jealous of such wrongful self-assuredness and "divine" fascism. Though it is very useful to foment hate and violence and thus uphold false retaliations, as well as foster passive-aggressiveness in light (yet useful) oppression of those with other religions.

Quote:
Jews don't need to change at all, they are already Israel, already practicing the ways of the God of the bible and for 2000 years people saw them as stubborn, and if that was their only redeeming quality, it is enough. Their stubbornness is that they wont assimilate and their by destroy themselves.
No one "needs" to change.

But it is wrong to suggest that Jews are not different one from the other and that the Hebrew people and those of the 12 tribes (whereever they might be) have never changed! It's just like "real" Muslims and "real" Christians and "real" Scottsmen fallacies.

The stubbornness by itself is not often a redeeming quality but evidence to the frailty of their beliefs (the Abrahamists and fascist-old-blood-sacrifice-heaven believers).

Jews have always assimilated in some parts and not in others, as have all people. But you are right, they didn't lose their "religious culture" through assimilation with intolerant Christians and Muslims like the Greco-Romans and Egyptians and Babylonians and Persians did. Neither did the Hindus or Buddhists (although I suppose the Shinto largely have since a lot of Zen Buddhists don't accept the need for any gods and are therefore to that extent intolerant to the accepting Shinto).
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Well . . . yes. Of course the gospel writers, as well as all the NT writers were Christians. Jesus as God though was not a later belief. He was understood to be God from the beginning of the church. And contrary to popular belief, all four gospels present Jesus as God. I'm not going to go into detail about that in this post because I'm too tired. If you want, let me know and I will back up that statement later on in a different post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I can't altogether agree with that. The Gospels show an initial man (Davidic messiah) that was occupied by the holy spirit (God or Shekinah) at baptism. The idea being to rubber stamp Jesus as the messiah, not John.
The spirit then drove, or in Matthew and Luke. more politely, 'Led', the man Jesus into the desert, and on the cross left him. This is not the same thing as the Virgin birth that came later (I am sure) in Matthew and Luke, where Jesus was inhabited by the spirit of God from the start And of course the spirit could not leave Jesus on the cross, or at least not permanently, so the body had to lie there until the small hours of Sunday and the body sat up and walked through to door, which was opened not to allow Jesus to get out but for the women to look in.

Paul's Davidic messiah was not the Holy Spirit itself (indeed, that idea might have been blasphemy to him, as it apparently was to the Sanhedrin, knowing through prophetic inspiration that 'Son of God' merely meant messiah and not the Shekinah present in Jesus as later theology. That is, in actual fact it would not have been a blasphemy unless the Sanhedrin were thinking in terms of post Constantine christian doctrine.

Or at least that of Matthew, Luke and John, where Jesus is still a man but no more than a parchment skin of a man through which God's actual presence shines like a hazard lamp.
The difference is that John known of no nativity, let alone a virgin Birth. For him just as for the others, the Holy Spirit descended at the baptism. It was still God present but not born with God present.
It is hardly fair to say that John didn't know about the nativity or virgin birth simply because he didn't write about it. Both John and Mark chose to begin their Gospel accounts with the public ministry of Jesus. Not with his birth. That being the case they naturally wouldn't have mentioned the nativity or virgin birth.

It is well known that the Gospel of John emphasizes the deity of Jesus. Writing his Gospel account around AD. 95 he opens his gospel with a direct statement that the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus) is not only with God but is Himself God and that He became flesh. John 1:1 with John 1:14. This is similar to what Paul wrote in Philippians 2:5-8 which Paul wrote sometime during the late 50's or early 60's. Paul states that Jesus existed in the form of God and that He took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. Both Paul and John agree that the Word (Jesus) was God and that He became flesh (man).

Of interest also is the fact that while sharply debated among scholars, John 1:18, according to the earliest and best manuscripts, which are, P⁶⁶ א* B C* // P⁷⁵ 33 as stated in Dan Wallace's book Revisiting the Corruption of The New Testament, p73 (as well as א¹, except that the superscript ¹ belongs on the right of the aleph but I couldn't get it to format that way) reads as ''No one has ever seen God; the unique God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.''

So in John 1:18 the earliest and best manuscripts read μονογενὴς Θεὸς [the] 'unique God' instead of μονογενὴς Υἱὸν [the] 'unique Son.' The reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς in John 1:18 is in keeping with John 1:1 in which the Word is said to be God.

And of course, Jesus Himself self designates as God when He states in John 8:58, ''before Abraham was born, I am.' In the context of John 8:58 Jesus' 'I am' statement reflects the 'I am' statements of God in Old Testament passages such as Isaiah 41:4 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.' Isaiah 42:8 ''I am the LORD, that is My name; . . .'' Isa. 43:10, Isa. 43:13, Isa. 44:6, etc.

But as I said, contrary to the claims of most, even of scholars who should know better, the synoptic Gospels also contain references in which Jesus demonstrates in a very Jewish manner that He is God. My source material for this is the book by Dr. Brant Pitre titled, 'The Case for Jesus' which pointed out some things that I wasn't aware of.

For one, all three synoptic Gospels record Jesus' stilling of the waters in Matthew 8:23-27, Mark 4:35-41, and Luke 8:22. What is significant about this miracle revealing that Jesus is God is not simply that it is a miracle since the apostles were given the authority to perform miracles, but that this particular miracle in which Jesus stills the sea reflects the Old Testament instances in which God stilled the waters as in Job 26:11-12 where God rebukes the sea and quiets it with His power, in the creation account in Psalm 104:1-7 in which God rebukes the waters causing them to flee, and Psalm 106:8-9 where God rebukes the Red Sea and causes it to dry up.

It is God who stills the waters. The apostles, being Jewish, knew the Hebrew scriptures concerning God stilling the waters. And so when they witnessed Jesus' demonstration of His deity, they wondered, ''What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?'' (Matthew 8:27). The episode was designed to get the apostles to think about who Jesus really was.

On another occasion, in one of the first miracles recorded in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus reveals His identity, again, in a very Jewish way, by healing a paralytic after first telling him that his sins are forgiven (Matthew 9:2-7, Mark 2:1-12, Luke 5:21). Mark 2:7 and Luke 5:21 record the Scribes and the Pharisees reasoning in their hearts that Jesus was blaspheming because only God can forgive sins. Now while a person can forgive someone who sins against him, since sin is ultimately an offense against God, only God can forgive men's sins. The Jews, understanding this then considered Jesus' statement that the paralytic's sins were forgiven as blasphemous because Jesus was claiming to be God, again, in a very Jewish way.

Dr. Pitre also mentions, as I did some time ago in my thread, Jesus' claim to be Deity as recorded by Matthew and Mark, that Jesus' reply to Caiaphas at His trial in which He says that He would be seen coming on the clouds of heaven is a claim to deity. Since I gave the details in that thread concerning why that statement of Jesus was a claim to deity I won't go into it here. But do click on the link.

These are some of the ways in which the synoptic Gospels do present Jesus as God. And once again, these are presentations that are done in a very Jewish way. The Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus was identifying Himself as God in ways that would make people think about who He really was.

Last edited by Mike555; 03-16-2018 at 09:58 PM..
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:03 PM
 
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There are two pointers to mark and John not knowing of a nativity
(1) such a significant event ought to have been mentioned.

(2) John 7.14 I I remember..No 7.42. has a debate where "The Jews" remark that the messiah ought to come from Bethlehem. That neither Jesus corrects then, not John explain to the reader that Jesus was indeed born in Bethlehem, as well as of course not having a Nativity, is evidence enough for me (if not for you) that neither of then knew of a Bethlehem birth.

There's of course another point. The two accounts in Matthew and Luke are quite contradictory. That, I suggest, is strong evidence that they were made up, and you have to invent your own story unless there isn't one already.

I take your point about the divinity of Jesus, though. I've always rather seen a difference between Mark's meat puppet, pushed around by the Shekinah and John's Jesus which is pretty much God in person with a thin human shell around it. But perhaps there isn't all that much difference between a god in human form and a man with a god in it.
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