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I highly doubt either Darwin or Newton fully understood the portent of their discoveries.
Even if scientism -- whatever that is -- could conceivably drive a scientist away from science, this sort of "exodus" no doubt happens in tiny numbers. Or, more accurately, one or two lone individuals once every few years. Certainly not on any massive scale.
It's like saying, "Oh my god, this science makes sense and elegantly explains the problem! Aaaaaah! I need to stop studying science so I can hang on to my faith!"
Science, to the best of my knowledge, isn't in the business of proving or disproving god. However, for those who take the Bible literally and as actual history, it's only a matter of time before they collide -- one side saying one thing and the other side saying just the opposite.
No doubt science is interested in the origin of life -- and human life in particular. If science discovered that humans were formed magically from a pile of dirt and a rib, I'm reasonably certain that's what science would say. Therefore I'm not really sure into which area science is going where it doesn't belong. Surely you're not suggesting that science should stop digging into the origins of things like life and the universe ...
For those who do not take the Bible literally -- well -- they have an easier time rationalizing their way out of the evolution vs. original sin conundrum. I still say there is some faulty reasoning at play, but it's still a million times better than rabid fundamentalism.
As for Darwin and Newton, very little was known about the universe or life during their times. We didn't even know there were other galaxies until the 1920s. And Darwin had trouble with religion ever since his voyage on the Beagle.
Like I've said before, the trouble with religion is that, unless you believe wholeheartedly and without question or reservation, you may as well be an atheist. There is no "maybe." That can prove rather difficult for a scientist to deal with when it comes to scientific discovery -- especially if only one side can be correct. Unfortunately, all too often, that blind devotion to faith will lead even a scientist into rejecting science.
You are quite right about Newton. We may smile now about his brilliant work on Astrology, optics, the Daniel prophecies, Physics and Alchemy, because there was no way then to say which principles were going to be validated and which weren't. He knew at the time that alchemy could get him Done if it came to the ears of the church, but he didn't know at the time that Daniel was 2nd c BC date retrospecting 'prophecy'.
But Darwin now, our pal is mistaken. His loss of faith was no more through evolution theory than many other converts. It was through problem of evil. He knew in the end that Origin of Species would cause an upset in the Church (though within a decade evolution had been accepted and it has only been challenged in the last half century by American religious fundamentalism - with Muslim Creationism jumping on the band -wagon in the last few decades) but the pointless death of his daughter was the reason for loss of faith.
I know, the believers may not see that as a valid reason, but various Problem of Evil questions are big deconverters.
Wiping out the entire population of over two dozen cities -- including animals and babies -- for the sake of an Israelite land grab is wrong.
Flooding out the entire planet killing tens of millions of people who never had an inkling of the Hebrew god's idea of sin ... that was wrong.
Sending two bears to tear apart 42 children for simply calling Elijiah "old bald head" is wrong.
Accepting the blood sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter is wrong.
Ordering Abraham to murder is own son and then hollering "psyche!" at the last moment is wrong.
Torturing the living hell out of Job and killing his innocent family all for the sake of a STUPID bet with Satan is wrong.
Refusing to outlaw slavery cart blanche and instead offering up a set of rules for slavery that still allows slave owners to beat and kill their slaves is wrong.
Butchering his own son by crucifying him just to forgive humanity for crimes God caused to happen in the first place -- especially when God simply could have forgiven humanity without all the blood is wrong.
Massacring the first born of Egypt was wrong -- especially since it wasn't done even for a punishment but as a means of extorting the pharaoh to let the Hebrews go.
In fact, ALL of the plagues of Egypt were wrong. Why the hell did God need Pharaoh's permission to take the Hebrews out of bondage in the first place?
Wiping out Sodom and Gamorrah was wrong -- especially given that God was such a misogynistic woman-hater that "righteous women" didn't count; they all had to die because the MEN were misbehaving.
Thinking Lot was righteous despite wanting to toss his daughters out to a ravening crowd who wanted to gang-rape someone is wrong.
I mean, seriously, how long does this list of nefarious evil and butchery have to be before you see the issue here? Or are you not able to see it?
If by evildoing you mean not believing in Jesus and by repenting, coming to believe in Jesus, then yes, it is wrong. Didn't you get the memo? Faith is everything, works is nothing.
No. I mean actively sinning and not doing what God commands, or doing what he says not to.
Hawking had the right to believe what he wanted. We don't have to agree with him. His area of expertise wasn't in spirituality though, so I don't see the point in looking to him for wisdom in that area.
His contributions to science are sufficient to give him credit and praise in that field. Beyond that, let's leave the dead guy alone.
Hawking had the right to believe what he wanted. We don't have to agree with him. His area of expertise wasn't in spirituality though, so I don't see the point in looking to him for wisdom in that area.
His contributions to science are sufficient to give him credit and praise in that field. Beyond that, let's leave the dead guy alone.
LOL... expertise in spirituality.
I'd wager he had no particular qualifications in leprechaunology, either.
I think some are getting Hawking confused with Richard Dawkins, who's been a lot more outspoken about this. Hawking was about science and astrophysics. He spoke about God in a more metaphorical sense, something closer to my own concept of spirituality.
Which makes no rational sense considering -- well, if you believe the Bible -- God was the one who unleashed sin into the world as a punishment for eating that dreaded forbidden fruit.
So ... to sum up: God absolutely hates sin, so as a punishment, he unleashes sin into the world. Human beings start sinning -- which is what one would expect to happen if you unleash sin into the world. Right? Once humans start sinning, God gets angry at humanity for sinning, completely forgetting (apparently) that it was all his own fault for unleashing sin into the world in the first place -- as if God couldn't have thought of a better, less chaotic and destructive punishment.
And WE are the ones who should be begging for forgiveness? No, I think not. If anyone owes anyone else an apology, God should be on his knees begging US for forgiveness for pushing sin onto us from the get-go. After all, it's not as if God was so bloody stupid that he literally had NO idea that humanity would disobey eventually and eat that damn fruit -- especially with a talking serpent in the equation egging them on to disobey.
You don't even need to be an omniscient God to predict what would happen if you wave a forbidden fruit in the faces of a childlike species and then tell them not to eat it -- and then walk off, leaving the fruit with the humans. I mean, seriously ... duh!
This is why the whole story of sin and the need for forgiveness is bogus.
If you truly want to be a good person, the only person you need forgiveness from is the person you've wronged. Period. Of course, you need to be able to forgive yourself, as well.
Unfortunately for a lot of people, religion allows people to escape their responsibilities toward the people they've actually wronged and instead can dump all of their feelings of guilt onto an imaginary being that will automatically and without question forgive the sinner. It's a bad system that gives a person a way out, to not have to face those they've wronged and risk recriminations and even possibly not being forgiven so easily. This is what happens with any system that puts a god first and people a very distant second.
It's too bad God DIDN'T ignore those who sinned against him -- because 99% of the time, his punishments never mesh with the severity of the crime. The only punishment your God ever comes up with is death, murder, indiscriminate mass killings of innocents, outright temper tantrums, and all the rest of it.
There is no greater example of cognitive dissonance than the Christian belief that God is good when the Old Testament clearly shows that he's not.
And there's no getting around that. Not if you're truly moral.
This is one of the reasons why it boggles my mind when some Christians claim that atheists can't really be moral without God. In fact, for *many* atheists, the reason why they stopped believing is because their morality was so accute, so well-defined, that they simply could not juxtapose the Old Testament God with love, compassion, justice, wisdom, and fairness -- and certainly not with morality.
Because the things God has done -- or has ordered others to do in his name -- are atrocities so unspeakable as to be personally offensive. Even after thousands of years, God's criminal behavior resonates through the millennia to personally offend the modern reader. And hence they become atheists.
Not that any of this seems to matter to the true believer, of course, going so far as to claim, "God can do whatever he wants because he's God!"
In fact, no, God can't do whatever he wants and still have the qualities that have been attached to him -- like love, justice, and compassion. It's like saying someone is honest while that person lies every other sentence. Then claiming, "He can lie all he wants to, he's still honest!"
P.S. I know it's tempting to say something like "but that's the Old Testament!" Well, if you believe in the Trinity, it means Jesus's hands are just as soaked in blood as God's own -- because they are essentially one and the same.
I can't rep you again but I love your posts.
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can worship a god that based on their own texts is the planet's most prolific serial killer, condones rape, devised a method to operate a system of slavery, ordered the murder of untold numbers of innocent children and animals, murdered people in fits of rage for no reason like Lot's wife, and was willing to torture and kill his son just to appease his own ego.
I think some are getting Hawking confused with Richard Dawkins, who's been a lot more outspoken about this. Hawking was about science and astrophysics.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too. In fact, I had to double-check the Internet to remind myself who Stephen Hawking was (I clearly knew who Dawkins was). As for this forum and topic, Richard Dawkins is the one who's more applicable.
You might benefit from observing what happens in the presence of god.
The Inquisition
The Salem With Trials
9-11 attacks on New York and D.C.
Iran
Somalia
Boko Haram
The Crusades
Jim Jones Suicide
Waco Massacre
The list can go on but it will not because I am stopping it here. Point made.
Hospitals
Food banks
Charities
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