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I'm not sure if this is more appropriate for the psychology group, but the root cause is here, IMO. I wish I could post it in both forums.
As a victim advocate. Many victims of abuse are people of faith. And common struggle for victims is forgiveness which is, no doubt, tied to the "love thy enemies" dictate. But I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it is to forgive, let alone love, someone who has harmed you and, in some cases, nearly killed you.
The problem I have with it is how they feel about themselves when they struggle with it. They've already endured the abuse that served to diminish them. Now, they feel badly about themselves because they feel anger and hatred and don't often want to forgive. They've been conditioned to think these rightful feelings are wrong. That it's Satan doing his work. So they forgive. And, this is just one reason they go back.
Why are the completely natural responses to hatred and abuse demonized so? This isn't limited to believers, btw. I'm actually pretty surprised at how many non-theists subscribe to this mentality.
yup, I was shocked when I first came on forums to talk to other atheist. I quickly found we have atheist denominations that are based on hate and blind faith statements. They are as dangerous as theists groups like that.
I had to ask why, well, because that's what i do .... apply the scientific method. The answer, list personality traits of people. In this case, list the broken personalities you deal with on a regular basis.
Then in the next column, list how they would express a belief in god. next column; List how would they express a belief in no god. third column; List how they would strike back at something if they can't strike the abuser.
You have direct experience with this. You will see the personality has nothing to do with the belief. The personality expresses the belief. Broken people express broken belief statements about god. Atheist and theist have broken people.
tread lightly when talking about this, they will attack, as you know. but be strong and keep stating it. the regulars around need to see it.
It doesn't seem like you really understood what I wrote.
I didn't say anger was shameful, but rather that is was a better emotion than shame and guilt, because shame and guilt sucked the life out of me. Nor did I say that forgiveness was the goal. I said forgiveness was a step toward healing for me.
I understood. I was addressing the religious-induced guilt you mentioned and just added that forgiveness shouldn't be the goal, as it so often is, due to that guilt.
yup, I was shocked when I first came on forums to talk to other atheist. I quickly found we have atheist denominations that are based on hate and blind faith statements. They are as dangerous as theists groups like that.
I had to ask why, well, because that's what i do .... apply the scientific method. The answer, list personality traits of people. In this case, list the broken personalities you deal with on a regular basis.
Then in the next column, list how they would express a belief in god. next column; List how would they express a belief in no god. third column; List how they would strike back at something if they can't strike the abuser.
You have direct experience with this. You will see the personality has nothing to do with the belief. The personality expresses the belief. Broken people express broken belief statements about god. Atheist and theist have broken people.
tread lightly when talking about this, they will attack, as you know. but be strong and keep stating it. the regulars around need to see it.
I don't think I've come across those atheist denominations yet. That's disturbing. But I ain't skurred.
I understood. I was addressing the religious-induced guilt you mentioned and just added that forgiveness shouldn't be the goal, as it so often is, due to that guilt.
yes! so true pass.
I have more experience with victims than most. Not as much as you tho. I have been telling them since '96 (hey, I heard that)
Its ok to love and hate them. That love/hate brings great conflict in us, but its ok to be as mad as hell and want to knock their block off, then an hour later love them. I tell then that's normal, I would be more worried if you didn't have that conflict.
I know it sounds weird, but I tell them to let the anger experience, or emotion, run a course for a bit and then tell yourself, when you feel ready, "ok, I am not feeling mad for a little while, but that doesn't mean I don't like what they did. I am just choosen to do something or feel something I like now.".
they can always revisit the "steam room" but they don't have to do it all day and they don't have to feel bad they feel that way or that some days it took over more than they would like.
Them just understanding they let the feeling run them for a bit is so great. Not only should they not feel guilty, but they should be proud of themselves for the realization "I experienced it and contained it for a bit." or "it went to long".
I am sorry for the rant. having people in front of you facing this stuff makes me sick to my stomach thinking about how religion's mishandling of this. some friggin pastor that doesn't know squat about how people work destroying a person. errrrrr, i get so MAD ... oopss, sorry.
I understood. I was addressing the religious-induced guilt you mentioned and just added that forgiveness shouldn't be the goal, as it so often is, due to that guilt.
Ah, okay sorry. It sounded like you thought I was saying the opposite of what I was.
I just had another member on this forum, Hannie, demonstrate the true power of forgiveness (mostly mercy) in a way I could understand. It's on this thread and it starts with his post #77.
I see it as what was taken coming full circle. Hannie was in a position that he could have exacted whatever payment he wanted from these men but he chose to forgive. At that moment he was the one with all the power and he chose mercy. He was "better" than what had been done to him. So, if a person gets to the point that they can forgive it may help them regain some sense of control and maybe some self respect. It seems telling someone they must forgive is counter productive to that sense of autonomy.
"Forgiveness is not for them, it's for you" never made sense to me. You can't effectively extend forgiveness without someone receiving it. It is absolutely for them.
Sure you can - people forgive their dead parents all the time. It may or may not be warranted, but people do it - and I don't know that they're necessarily doing it from the perspective that they believe their parents somehow "know" they're being forgiven. You can argue that it doesn't count as forgiveness if you don't out and out tell a person you've forgiven them, but that seems to be another matter.
I just had another member on this forum, Hannie, demonstrate the true power of forgiveness (mostly mercy) in a way I could understand. It's on this thread and it starts with his post #77.
I see it as what was taken coming full circle. Hannie was in a position that he could have exacted whatever payment he wanted from these men but he chose to forgive. At that moment he was the one with all the power and he chose mercy. He was "better" than what had been done to him. So, if a person gets to the point that they can forgive it may help them regain some sense of control and maybe some self respect. It seems telling someone they must forgive is counter productive to that sense of autonomy.
Too soon etc. as usual.
Hanni has a light that shines.
It may not illuminate my path entirely, but it casts enough side-glow to help me along my way.
If a person of faith becomes a victim of abuse and decides to forgive them and go back to them I see no problem with that. It's a free country.
If the religion is the basis of their beliefs, then there is nothing much a victim advocate can do. You can't tell them who to pray to.
Forging, forgetting, it doesn't matter. What you have to do is cope and function as a productive member of society despite the traumatic event you had. Coping is the key.
Sure you can - people forgive their dead parents all the time. It may or may not be warranted, but people do it - and I don't know that they're necessarily doing it from the perspective that they believe their parents somehow "know" they're being forgiven. You can argue that it doesn't count as forgiveness if you don't out and out tell a person you've forgiven them, but that seems to be another matter.
Well, I can reveal that my dad was kindly but dim and my mother was .....
When I left home to work in London, I knew what it was like escaping Stalinist Russia to the West. When she died, the constant battle to stay free was over. We (the family) could all relax. Forgive? Doesn't come into it. Forget? No, why should we?
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It doesn't seem like you really understood what I wrote.
