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Old 04-29-2018, 01:09 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Common sense belief …….in God

As a Gentile, meaning a non-Jew, I have not been chosen or given a law or specific location on planet earth to call my own. In that respect, I represent what the rest of humanity is in the world.
The only thing the Gentiles have in common with the Jews is a conscience towards a known God (Jewish God) to the Jews and an unknown god (Trees, Sun, Moon, god of the harvest…. the list goes on) to the Gentiles.

The Jews needed a sign to believe where as the Gentiles need none. Why such a disparity? I mean ……aren’t we all human beings with intelligence? Made of the same lump of clay…. earth?

Unless, as the saying goes… “To whom much is given, much is required”, is a key to the answer to the disparity.

So, for a Gentile who has no known god has no science proving there is a God. So, what if, a Gentile decides to look into the Jewish Gods claim of authenticity?

How can a Gentile accept such a claim that science can not otherwise prove the existence of a god?
Does a Gentile need a sign? NO! But, by the mere facts of things already existing in this world, by the intelligent design of not only the things on earth but also the organized, methodical, operation of the cosmos. I.e. The undying Sun by day, the guiding light , Moon, by night, the stars for navigation… the list goes on.

Surely… there must be a God. (Note: special emphasis on upper case letters to lower case letters in this post)

Since Science can not prove there is a God, we must conclude than (by common reasoning) that there must be something to the Jewish God that may hold the answer to our querying.

After all, we have a story of human beginnings, human behavioral limits all because there was A GOD that created it all. Now, that makes sense to me, a Gentile, so I’m interested.

I learn somethings that if I decide to believe in the Jewish God I have to accept it by faith and not by sign.
I also find that I, a Gentile without a known god, can know of a known God simply and only by faith alone. That to me would be a gift, free from any ties that Binds my curiosity to the unknown gods, that would otherwise, hold me in prison of an unanswerable QUERY.

So again, if I choose, by faith alone, to believe in the Jewish Messiah claims of my being accepted into the Jewish Gods Kingdom in the afterlife…. that would be a first.

So, the saying now make sense, even though it may have a wide range of applications, but in my case it is that “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”.

Makes sense that can easily be accepted. I , not being chosen (like the Jews) am first to believe in the Jewish Gods Messiah for their God promising me, not only an explanation of my beginnings, the reasons for my fallen state, but more like…. Tank you Jesus for rescuing me. (Hope restored)

Second place goes to the chosen for yet, to this day, need a sign in order to exercise faith in their Messiah as their true God.

Again, common sense tells me that their plight is my salvation therefore, they too will, by their own destiny become like as I am, saved by faith alone and not by all the required practices.

I believe, that for simplicity, that God, worked it all out for all our benefits, but each in its due time.
What does all this do to all the worlds religions and to those who refuse to believe in God?

Very simple……. Love! If, you love your neighbor you will love God. If you love God you will love your neighbor regardless of any stated religious (Religions) or none religious beliefs.

There would be no wars if, love was exercised, no killings, murders, stealing’s, hatred, greediness but purely giving of oneself, sharing ones possessions because it would be a God kind of love.
So, there neighbor, what have you to say bout that?

Blessings, AJ
You've just subtly stated replacement theology...Which could be viewed as Anti-Semitic...
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:16 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,906,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Testing was from the get go. Godly conscience was the application.

The law was not instituted till Moses.
The law was instituted to add degree to trespasses of the low.
Purposely so because all humanity would be concluded as under sin.
And without hope necessitating an outside intervention..

Enter.......Jesus. The outside source, as God of the Jews, delivered to the Jews for the express purpose of delivering mankind from it's delemma.

One would have to have some knowledge of Jesus'works to understand the plight of all those who lived and died before Jesus.
Perhaps a topic on that discussion on another thread.

Blessings,AJ
The Torah was given to the Israelites at Har Sinai, all 613 of them, not to the Gentiles, to the Gentiles, the Seven Noachide Laws apply...The Gentiles are not expected to follow the 613 Laws, these are only for the Jews...A Righteous Gentile [one who abides by the Seven Noachide Laws] has a portion in Olam HaBa...So, no, no outside source is needed...
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Old 04-29-2018, 03:16 AM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,248 posts, read 1,253,693 times
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Quote:
We seem to have drifted off the topic from what is essentially the 'watchmaker' argument, which has long been refuted) common sense (Aka imperfect human understanding) can indeed lead to the supposition that Somebody must have done it al. Science shows us that this is a human lack of understanding about the nature of the universe.
Sorry , Transponder

I am not aware of the watchmakers argument so I can not respond to it directly.

But from what what I gather from "Aka imperfect understanding" meaning that humans come short of intelligence concerning nature and the universe?

I have come to believe that science is, a God given occupation, for mankind exploration and entertainment.
That in exploration of all things would aid in confirming the existence of a one God creation.

The natural human conscience, upon every soul, strongly suggests of a higher entity but not readily identifiable with out exploration.

Always wondered about the native American Indians having a conscience towards a higher entity without ever having being exposed to Christianity. They just didn't have any source of additional information to explore.

I agree with your (a) God wants humans to be with Him in heaven (b) given that he wants them to have free Will and mot be mindless robots, he knew they were going to Sin.
Note on b. .."he knew they were going to Sin". Common sense tell me that a free spirit has its own mind and therefore, a separation occurs between the creator and the created. No fault of the created or the creator but of its own independence.
That was know to God to be inevitable. My conclusion came from the THE REMOVING OF THE TREE OF LIFE FROM THE GARDEN.
That to me was the fall of mankind, which left mankind in a state of separation. (indicated by expulsion from the garden)
Also indicates the helplessness of mankind to restore itself to its former state necessitating a rescue from its creator.

Agree also with (c) as you point (and Paul) point out, first innate knowledge of morality was given (though oddly the Eden story suggests that God didn't want us to have it) and the Law was given to get humans to act correctly.
Note: Having a conscience was a guide line but had no degree of penalty. Spiritual separation (death) was upon all mankind as a consequence but not a reflection of behavior...I believe.

In Romans 5:13 states: For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

After the law sin then became a factor in behavior. So now separation (death) was not only the consequence but now the behavioral factor was added.

God, had to first redeem mankind from the death clause and second had to cover (forgive) every conceivable sin that mankind could possibly commit in order to accept mankind as blameless into Gods kingdom.

I gathered that by the following verse: Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin ends at death but the consequences of our original creation didn't until Jesus took care of it for us.

Makes perfect sense to me.

On your last point (d) Christian theology argues that this wasn't working (as though God didn't know that it wouldn't) and Jesus was sent to release humans from Sin.
Note: Christian argue that the law didn't work towards salvation which required the hand of Gods intervention in the form of Jesus to fulfill the requirement.

Quote:
Now riddle me this: any idea that believing in Jesus makes people do no sin is plainly false and I gather that the idea is that Jesus allows God to forgive.
Like I explained above. Sin was not imputed where there was no law, yet death remained.
The death part was Jesus' main corrective mission and the sin part was total forgiveness by grace imparted.

We still sin and we are still responsible for sin and physical death is the consequence not the spiritual. as explained above with verse Romans 6:23.

So, it is true that people sin but sin ends at death and Jesus is the owner of our spirits which are blameless in His sight.

May I add that righteous acts has its rewards as does the unrighteous acts have consequences. Those we are blessed wit or cursed with.

Quote:
In either case, if that is a result that makes human sinless without abrogating their free will, why couldn't God have done that in the first place?
How would any free will soul know and experience the difference between two same values" Good verses good?

The reason for removing the tree of life from the reach of Adam was for the testing. Valve is created when there is a difference between two extremes.

Seems logical and makes sense to me.


Blessings, AJ
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:05 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,808,564 times
Reputation: 2879
Common sense belief …….in God

There is no 'common sense' regarding god belief.
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:46 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,500,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Common sense belief …….in God

There is no 'common sense' regarding god belief.
we would have to list some of the claims they make to see if this reasonable. But on the surface, all/nothing just doesn't seem like it uses common sense.
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:54 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,540,275 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Gots to give it a reputation.

If God wants something to happen - and it doesn't happen as per his plan, then, is he even God?
Ta Well, i won't debate it here, though it does seem a good discussion, but this is the thing: the story Sounds like somebody trying to make a plan work when plainly it isn't working - like an unsound Dictator. The argument that God is constrained by his own imposed rules makes no sense.

The Free Willy argument had Some mileage, because we can understand that he doesn't want mindless beings and so had to Plan it from the start factoring in free will decisions, Prayers (which is why we have to do it even if God knew what we would pray for before He even made us) and all the apparent bad stuff.

But it Really doesn't make sense, literally. Factory recalling all creation? Why not start with Noah as the first man and his sons and wives, thus avoiding all the chat about incest?

Ok, so I fully buy the argument from 'non literal'(1). Good, so the Flood never happened, The evidence of evolution is as true as how it looks and Ham's Ark is a criminal waste of public money. But you can't say that the Jewish laws being given and then Jesus turning up and saying: 'forget all that, just have faith in me and act like little angels' is being 'Bible literal'. This is the Basis of Christianity.

Which is what it's all about - why not do that from the start? Give the Christian word to the entire ****ing world, not piddle about with an admittedly resilient religion (which it still is despite Jesus coming to say we didn't need it anymore) and relying on Two Empires (Roman and British)taking it up as state religion - and that, may Goldnrule note, is the Mojo, not Jesus.

Hinduism spread all over Asia. Buddhism spread from Afghanistan to Japan, and Islam has proven an equally strong and persistent religion as any of those, and we mustn't forget that Egyptian and a sacrifice - based S and central American religion lasted thousands of years, and Hellenism didn't do too badly, either. and one could say is as much the basis of Christianity as Judaism.

Why not get Christianity started worldwide from the start? It really is like this: if God was doing a plan and creating a universe or doing Life in one go, and God had a plan to make us all good enough to be with Him in heaven (or at least weed out those who weren't), it would look like That and if no god made the universe, life evolved, and there was no godplan in operation, it would look like This, and repeatedly This is how it does look, and apologetics are forever finding excuses as to why it doesn't look like That.

There is no valid reason to believe in any god, and as far as Biblegod goes (and the Quran, as 'unquestionable evidences showed) atheists can say "there is no God" (for darn near certain) and we are justified in doing so.

So if the Theists throws up their hands and says "You win, Biblegod can't be true, and I suppose none of the Abrahamic religions. And you made a case against a non -religious creator. But I believe in a god on Faith. It Makes Sense that there is a mind and a plan behind it". I will say that we can live with that. We have no campaign against it. We see no logical reason to believe it as a reliable claim, but it can't be disproved, and we don't have our own explanations of the gaps, or rather we can't prove them true.

(1) I really have to correct a truly persistent and pernicious apologetic - atheists are Bible literalists. Just as 'atheists always assume Biblegod'. We argue theism of whatever for it is presented, we mainly think in terms of Bible and Jesus as this what we usually get, and we talk Bible as substantinlly true (if not true cover to cover) because this is usually what we get, and Mainly, because YE Bible literalist Creationism is not only very prevalent but is a great threat to western (not to mention global) society.

Bible (mainly NT) as substantially true, is (because of Christianity and it's Mojo' as Goldie keeps on about) something to be debated, but is not such a threat as Bible literalist creationism. At least not now, and agnostic -god is merely an academic debate and not something to fight about - unless the sortagoddists make it a fight.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-29-2018 at 06:21 AM.. Reason: many an edit.
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:30 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,540,275 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Sorry , Transponder

I am not aware of the watchmakers argument so I can not respond to it directly.
Google it, but basically it is 'Everything looks designed, so there must be a designer'.

Quote:
But from what what I gather from "Aka imperfect understanding" meaning that humans come short of intelligence concerning nature and the universe?

I have come to believe that science is, a God given occupation, for mankind exploration and entertainment.
That in exploration of all things would aid in confirming the existence of a one God creation.

The natural human conscience, upon every soul, strongly suggests of a higher entity but not readily identifiable with out exploration.

Always wondered about the native American Indians having a conscience towards a higher entity without ever having being exposed to Christianity. They just didn't have any source of additional information to explore.

I agree with your (a) God wants humans to be with Him in heaven (b) given that he wants them to have free Will and mot be mindless robots, he knew they were going to Sin.
Note on b. .."he knew they were going to Sin". Common sense tell me that a free spirit has its own mind and therefore, a separation occurs between the creator and the created. No fault of the created or the creator but of its own independence.
That was know to God to be inevitable. My conclusion came from the THE REMOVING OF THE TREE OF LIFE FROM THE GARDEN.
That to me was the fall of mankind, which left mankind in a state of separation. (indicated by expulsion from the garden)
Also indicates the helplessness of mankind to restore itself to its former state necessitating a rescue from its creator.

Agree also with (c) as you point (and Paul) point out, first innate knowledge of morality was given (though oddly the Eden story suggests that God didn't want us to have it) and the Law was given to get humans to act correctly.
Note: Having a conscience was a guide line but had no degree of penalty. Spiritual separation (death) was upon all mankind as a consequence but not a reflection of behavior...I believe.

In Romans 5:13 states: For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

After the law sin then became a factor in behavior. So now separation (death) was not only the consequence but now the behavioral factor was added.

God, had to first redeem mankind from the death clause and second had to cover (forgive) every conceivable sin that mankind could possibly commit in order to accept mankind as blameless into Gods kingdom.

I gathered that by the following verse: Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin ends at death but the consequences of our original creation didn't until Jesus took care of it for us.

Makes perfect sense to me.

On your last point (d) Christian theology argues that this wasn't working (as though God didn't know that it wouldn't) and Jesus was sent to release humans from Sin.
Note: Christian argue that the law didn't work towards salvation which required the hand of Gods intervention in the form of Jesus to fulfill the requirement.



Like I explained above. Sin was not imputed where there was no law, yet death remained.
The death part was Jesus' main corrective mission and the sin part was total forgiveness by grace imparted.

We still sin and we are still responsible for sin and physical death is the consequence not the spiritual. as explained above with verse Romans 6:23.

So, it is true that people sin but sin ends at death and Jesus is the owner of our spirits which are blameless in His sight.

May I add that righteous acts has its rewards as does the unrighteous acts have consequences. Those we are blessed wit or cursed with.



How would any free will soul know and experience the difference between two same values" Good verses good?

The reason for removing the tree of life from the reach of Adam was for the testing. Valve is created when there is a difference between two extremes.

Seems logical and makes sense to me.


Blessings, AJ
So you do argue the 'watchmaker' (the heaven show forth the glory of the Lord and so on') and human imperfect perception is set straight by science, which weeds out and eliminated errors and validates the results. Human 'commonsense' guesswork is very unreliable; the scientific method has a good track record; the only method really that does.

My response (interim rather than detailed) to the rest of your Long post is that The pot can and does dictate to the potter. It is called 'clay remembers' and it means that the way the clay is formed is how it will act, even if the potter wants it to do something else. If he messes up the pot, nobody is to blame but the potter and to toss the clay in a bin is understandable, but it still ain't the clay's fault.

Free will however you slice it, does not get God off the hook and never did.

Now your point about innate morality is a good one, and the way it Looks is that we, along with other animals, have social instincts, and the more complex they get, especially in tribal and pack animals, the more complex and ethical and humanlike the instincts become, co-operation, caring for the sick (1), adulation of the Breeding -pair, mourning for the dead, family ties, sibling rivalry, position in the community and of course wars about resources.

That is where ethics and morality is to be found, not religion and if you don't believe me, ask why we have to judge whether what is in the Bible is good and needs to be praised or bad and excused, if it is argued that what God did was good simply because he did it?

Because we judge the Bible by Human moral codes and always did.

(1) I recall palaeontoiogical evidence that sabre -toothed cats who got injured were fed and cared for by the pack until they got better and could contrinue again.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-29-2018 at 06:45 AM..
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,248 posts, read 1,253,693 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Common sense belief …….in God

There is no 'common sense' regarding god belief.
Common sense is a God given gift!
If you don't recognize it how is it that you are making any moral judgements?
The definition of the words common sense is in making good judgements.

What part of that are you not excercing?

If, you are a believer, than your judgments should be based on God's moral code.

Blessings,AJ
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:00 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,500,449 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Common sense is a God given gift!
If you don't recognize it how is it that you are making any moral judgements?
The definition of the words common sense is in making good judgements.

What part of that are you not excercing?

If, you are a believer, than your judgments should be based on God's moral code.

Blessings,AJ
who's god?

As near as I can tell, we are in the image of the periodic table. is that the god you are referencing?
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,345 posts, read 23,925,697 times
Reputation: 32633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
who's god?

As near as I can tell, we are in the image of the periodic table. is that the god you are referencing?
I like that answer.

And I'll add, in regard to the other poster's message, plenty of people who do not believe in god have common sense, and plenty of god-believers have little or none. It's that old egotism that Christians just can't get away from.
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