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Old 05-30-2018, 07:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I enjoyed those too, and the 'Perelandra' series. But, as a non -believer in those days, I was aware of the Christian propaganda going on. I was uncomfortably away of a LOT of well poisoning going on, not to mentiona good deal of logical fallacy and some hypocrisy.

I didn't get to grips with his apologetics until later on, but cunning and persuasive though it might seem, it is false. Perhaps the most classic fallacy of his is 'Lord Liar or Lunatic' (fallacy of the undistributed middle - as well as pre-empting the evidence) as Anthony Flew's classic of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy (which as 'No Real Christian' is an apologetics favourite.

He is one of a long string of apologists, polemicists and propagandists for Jesus from Blaise Pascal to Josh McDowell, and all have failed to stand up to scrutiny. The arguments of the doubters have.
I've been wondering, is it even to possible to find good literature without propaganda of some kind? If we tried to find a perfect source that fit our wishes, we would end up with practically nothing.

In the same way, many Theists like myself find it difficult to find a place of worship where everyone shares their exact beliefs. So we end up attending some kind of Christian church where we share a lot of beliefs.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:45 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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You will almost alway find an agenda, a viewpoint or a cause being pushed, even if it isn't deliberate.

What you have to do is enjoy the entertainment but be aware of the Message (even if it wasn't intended). It was pretty bad back in the days before the 60's. Sexism and racism, Jingiosm and elitism were not only rife, it was considered Good Thinking. I have enjoyed Dennis Wheatley, Leslie Charteris, GM Frazer (Flashman), Dudley Pope and so on, but do not have to agree with or approve of their views, and indeed I saw "The Saint" turn from a Homophobic racist into a rather self conscious liberal. It's encouraging that progress is being made.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:35 PM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,136,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
In fact all this instinctive stuf -ego, hate, lust and curiosity, and yes, mischief, too, is what makes us human, and teaching us to despise ourselves in the hope to be angels on earth is futile. To understand ourselves and the instincts that drive us and to not let them control us is what is best to do, not to to be told to do the impossible of never being prideful or lustful or hateful or indeed curious (a Bad sin that, )and having to run blubbing to the church for absolution, paying our humanity as the fee..
Excellent and quotable post.

When I was a child, I inferred the meaning of pride to be when somebody doesn't listen. It is just another form of name calling or labeling especially if the choices you make do not fit in with the "tribe."

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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Well worth a ReP ? It's what I live for
I would give a rep but I gave you one the other day and now have to share.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:58 PM
 
63,565 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I agree, except I don't believe the "flock leaders" are as cunning and calculating as you paint them. I know a boat-load of pastors and I think they are, generally speaking, people who really believe what they're saying.
That is the really great travesty, Pleroo, so many, many actually do.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
5,466 posts, read 3,048,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I enjoyed those too, and the 'Perelandra' series. But, as a non -believer in those days, I was aware of the Christian propaganda going on. I was uncomfortably away of a LOT of well poisoning going on, not to mentiona good deal of logical fallacy and some hypocrisy.

I didn't get to grips with his apologetics until later on, but cunning and persuasive though it might seem, it is false. Perhaps the most classic fallacy of his is 'Lord Liar or Lunatic' (fallacy of the undistributed middle - as well as pre-empting the evidence) as Anthony Flew's classic of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy (which as 'No Real Christian' is an apologetics favourite.

He is one of a long string of apologists, polemicists and propagandists for Jesus from Blaise Pascal to Josh McDowell, and all have failed to stand up to scrutiny. The arguments of the doubters have.
Flew, it turned out, wasn't much of a real atheist.
He fell on his own fallacious fallacy.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
5,466 posts, read 3,048,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Maybe pride is really the greatest sin of all. It disconnects us from the rest of humanity and all living things.
Its not the #1 deadly sin for nuthin.
In religion its spiritual pride.
For atheism its intellectual pride.
Both forms are deadly and it hides the bodies well.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:16 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
Its not the #1 deadly sin for nuthin.
In religion its spiritual pride.
For atheism its intellectual pride.
Both forms are deadly and it hides the bodies well.
There is a difference between valuing reason and being overweeningly proud because of it, just as there is a devotion to religion which is not acting like a superior being because of it. I could give examples of people who act proud of themselves because of what they reckon they know, but I'd rather say that Pride is one of the least of the problems that society has to deal with. It seems only to be a valuable asset to the Church in trying to shame people into accepting the claims of religion unquestioningly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
Flew, it turned out, wasn't much of a real atheist.
He fell on his own fallacious fallacy.
I have no idea what you mean by this.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:29 AM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,813,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
There is a difference between valuing reason and being overweeningly proud because of it, just as there is a devotion to religion which is not acting like a superior being because of it. I could give examples of people who act proud of themselves because of what they reckon they know, but I'd rather say that Pride is one of the least of the problems that society has to deal with. It seems only to be a valuable asset to the Church in trying to shame people into accepting the claims of religion unquestioningly.
I know where you are coming from. But is it really pride if a person bows down to an ancient written authority?
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:48 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
I know where you are coming from. But is it really pride if a person bows down to an ancient written authority?
No, it's lack of questioning, either because they don't know how to or don't want to. It's been rightly observed that most people don't think for themselves (and if they do they usually do it on little or no real evidence, but rather propping up whatever prejudice they have) but go on what they are told (and who has the time to do the research themselves?). This often leads to polarisation when two Authorities (political, religious, etc) take opposing views and start trying to out -muscle the other.

I won't go into the past, present and perhaps future battles about Daainiken, Creationism and Flat earthism, but will offer the view that the Bible is not reliable, on history, Law or morals, or admonishments to society, and never mind the faith -claims.

There are those who don't believe the Bible but because they have come to value it, they feel the need to force it on society as being a source of good idea or guidance por "the basis of western Civilisation". It really isn't as good as a lot of other books or even Startrek scripts. Even if it can be claimed the basis of our society (arguable), it really needs to be put on the mythology shelf, alongside another influence on western society - the Greek /Roman gods - where it can be studied by professors in the Bible and they can stop trying to foist it on society and attack atheism while doing it even if - as i say - they don't actually believe it.
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,631 posts, read 4,916,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
Flew, it turned out, wasn't much of a real atheist.
He fell on his own fallacious fallacy.
Strange, according to Christians after he converted, he was the ultimate, most intelligent atheist, well known among people who had never even heard of him.

But yes, he did convert on the fallacy of "I simply can not believe that because I am ignorant of that subject".
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