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Old 05-12-2018, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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It's also odd that. with all the different religions that exist, their gods all did the same thing, left a book...full of contradictions and ambiguity.
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Old 05-12-2018, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,174 posts, read 753,988 times
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Clearly, intellectual honesty begs many questions concerning the abrahamic religions. You have to wear serious rose colored glasses to ignore the many illogical and irrational aspects of this “god”. It is more likely there has never been any evidence, including during the stories claimed supernatural timeline.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:43 AM
 
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We got the shroud of Turin which is a snap shot of the resurrection of Jesus Christ brought to us by the eternal light of the Lord God when He came and raised Jesus from the dead ..... See the raising of Jesus from the dead is the foundation of the idea of Christianity as with out Jesus raised from the dead then Christianity could not have come to the world............See a raised from the dead proves there is a afterlife as Jesus is the first .
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:17 AM
 
Location: NSW
2,662 posts, read 1,801,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
We got the shroud of Turin which is a snap shot of the resurrection of Jesus Christ brought to us by the eternal light of the Lord God when He came and raised Jesus from the dead ..... See the raising of Jesus from the dead is the foundation of the idea of Christianity as with out Jesus raised from the dead then Christianity could not have come to the world............See a raised from the dead proves there is a afterlife as Jesus is the first .
The Shroud of Turin, as much as I would like it to be true, has been carbon dated to be a fake.
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Old 05-13-2018, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
We got the shroud of Turin which is a snap shot of the resurrection of Jesus Christ brought to us by the eternal light of the Lord God when He came and raised Jesus from the dead .....
NO. 'We got' ...a fake! - just like the other FORTY-ODD alleged burial shrouds of 'Jesus' that are claimed to exist around the world. It was manufactured from the celebrated 'fake relic factories' of Christianity around the 14th century - along with enough splinters of the cross to make an Amazonian size forest, enough bones of the disciples for there to be a few hundred thousand disciples rather than twelve - and judging by the amount of 'phials of Jesus' 'blood' that are in circulation, he must have had about a hundred thousand gallons of the stuff floating around in his body.

With the SoT, there is no provision for the thickness of the body. There should be a gap or the top of the head should be seen. Furthermore, your own Bible gives you verifiable evidence that it's a fake because it specifically states in John 20:5-7 that the head was wrapped in strips of linen and a cloth which were not part of the cloth that the body was wrapped in.

"He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen."
John 20:5-7

John 19:40 states:
'Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.'

So make your choice hljc. Either the bible is true and it was strips of linen with a separate cloth over the head or the SoT is true and it was one, single piece of cloth wrapped around the bode. Which is it?

P.S. I also challenge you to lie on your back on the floor and, without raising your shoulders even a centimetre, place your hands over your genitals as the image on the shroud is doing. You can't do it pal! It's anatomically impossible.


Quote:
See the raising of Jesus from the dead is the foundation of the idea of Christianity as with out Jesus raised from the dead then Christianity could not have come to the world............
Without the existence of Brahma, Shiva and Ganesha, Hinduism couldn't have come into the world...right?

Quote:
See a raised from the dead proves there is a afterlife as Jesus is the first .
Resurrection is something that you haven't provided verifiable evidence for. What do you have?
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Old 05-13-2018, 05:19 AM
 
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Cracking post, Raffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
Well technology has improved a lot since 2000 years ago, so historical evidence is what we relying upon, along with "the book".
Maybe a DVD, a digital photo or video of some miracles maybe, and maybe even some DNA?
Just enough to keep the sceptics happy intellectually, to allow spiritual conversion, otherwise we may as well be talking about UFO's and Big Foot.
Currently scientific evidence disproves young earth theories, so we need some type of counter to that.
Yes. History and science increasing undermines more and more of the Bible. The Flood isn't believable. Two by two may support a shelf of books but not a genetically healthy species. The Nativity has a ten year date -discrepancy, and Pilate is nothing like the Gospel appeaser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
God does not come down to earth and talk to each individual to convey his message. Otherwise all mankind would have been believers. Nobody would have had the choice whether to believe or not? Which again, kills the whole purpose of life.

God would created each and every person, revealed himself to him, the person would have been left with no choice but to believe - and God would have sent him to paradise.

Fortunately or unfortunately that’s not the case.

The question then becomes for the theists tis hat, if a God is out there, and he created me then, what does he want from me since he gave me intelligence and ability to choose. (Trees and animals don’t have too much of a choice, for exampe. They mostly function on a preprogrammed based work flow where they don’t need much of an intelligence to make too many choices) while human has lots of intelligence and a cross roads of choices to make at every step of life.

So what does God want from me?
Your religious book is the answer.
A message of your God to you. If you have faith in it that it’s *true and uncorrupted* message and it tells you how to live your life - then - you don’t need any more proofs and evidences because after this - it starts the time for tires to hit the road.

You keeping putting in your best effort that is within your means, to live a peaceful and morally conscious life in accord to the holy message, till your time ends - you will make mistakes along the way, for which not only you repent but also make up for it - and you hope for the best when it comes to your judgement time.

On the road the other hand if one has doubts in the book of his faith *BUT* he still believes in God then he should keep searching for the holy message which talks to his heart and let the tires hit the road. This is where intelligence comes into play.


And I think, Islam is the only religion among all faiths that believe in Hell and Heaven, which does NOT guarantee a red carpet cosmic welcome and a no question asked spot in Heaven to its followers. But it does provide hope and a promise for good deeds to be rewarded. And God being merciful who forgives.

All other faiths guarantee a no question asked place in Heaven to its followers - and I think this is where the purpose of life becomes sort of irrelevant.

But anyway, with our intelligence we are equipped well enough to analyze the book and see if “THIS IS THE BOOK” ? And if yes, you won’t need anymore proofs because the book is all we have to begin with.

But I do have a question for you - what other alternative proofs and evidences you think should’ve been available besides “The Book”?

That's a very good post. You reason fine (apart from ignoring that it's all reasons to assume there Is no God) until you opt for Islam as the Right one. It may be right for you, but if you've followed the Three Big Debate -threads on Islam (1) you may understand why it isn't going to be right for anyone else.

(1) "Write another like it" "Professor says all Abrahamic religions are the same" and "Unquestionable evidences"

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-13-2018 at 06:20 AM..
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Old 05-13-2018, 05:27 AM
 
37,293 posts, read 10,069,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
The Shroud of Turin, as much as I would like it to be true, has been carbon dated to be a fake.
Ah The debate still goes on about the date (unless they did a cleaned -up C14 dating). And in fact I wouldn't mind it if it turned out to be true, as it would debunk the Synoptic version. But for me the debunk has always been that it is a a flat (photographic or painted) image, not a body -contact image

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
What I find strange about this, back when Jesus walked the earth, he had to show proof of who he claimed to be quite often, and even his disciples always wanted more proof, another miracle healing, etc etc. and Jesus did all kind of crazy supernatural things, raising people from the dead, healing them on the spot, etc and people still didnt believe him...


...And yet 2000+yrs later, God expects the people now to believe without any proof?? Why did he think this would happen when people living at the time of Jesus didn't believe it... when they saw it first hand?!!

Its also strange to me that Jesus was willing to demonstrate his abilities to back up his claim to the people back then, but he will not do the same today?

If he really wanted people to believe in him with faith, why did he even perform any miracles when he walked the earth? Why didn't he demand those people JUST believe and JUST have faith he is who he claims to be, without any proof or supernatural acts?
Right back when the story of Jesus was being Edited to make him look Christian, and fifty -100 years later the Resurrection was added as spiritual departure leaving a dead body behind (See Gospel of Peter) wasn't convincing enough and was heretical anyway.
And to head off any doubters, John invents just such a doubter who gets convincing evidence and recited his lines "My Lord and my God" and then the cast turn to the audience saying "You see? He didn't believe but he had proof. That should be good enough for you, too"

The line is, All the evidence was given long ago, and it's wrong of you to expect anything more than that. Indeed it can imperil your salvation (you see? Works can't save you but can lose you salvation, Paul taught that and it's still the elephant in the room that theology insists on ignoring) to entertain doubts and questions after all that ancient anecdotal evidence..
It is still an Arq Atheist Axiom 'There is only one real Sin - Doubt".

It is of course a swindle, as historical consideration is showing that the Gospel version of Jesus is not credible. But that gets ignored. Just like proof that William Bligh was stitched up in court has undermined the Bounty myth, but who is going to listen when you have two or more films that prove it was all Bligh's fault? Who cares that evidence shows that King Mongkut did not have any Royal concubine put to death and was of course a brilliant and well educated man in "Most scientific manner" when we have a couple of films and a musical to perpetuate the lies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And isn't it odd that all those miracles only happened in an era when evidence would not remain. How convenient.
I'm currently getting interested in the thirty years' war (the which???) which is even a valid subject for the forum(1) and it's interesting that it begins with an apparent miracle - The Catholic emissaries to the Protestants of Prague were summarily tipped out of a window but survived a fifty -foot drop. That they survived is agreed by both sides, but how they survived is disputed. The Catholics say they were buoyed up by angels. The Protestants say they fell in a heap of horse -crap. Believe which you like. I will only say that, unlike angels, I am convinced of the existence of horse crap, of which there was almost as much piled up in the street then as there is in Creationist apologetic sites today.

(1) it was the first spark of the move to secularism and enlightenment. Initially a religious war between Protestant Germany and Catholic Austria (who thereafter became allies and never mind different religion) and pretty soon it was clear that religion didn't matter a damn' and it was politics driving the war, as when catholic France allied with Protestant Sweden to put an end to the resurgent Holy Roman Empire, which it did.

By the time of the Napoleonic wars religion (while still being used to lead the masses around by the nose) didn't mean anything in the alliances, and the rulers knew that it didn't.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-13-2018 at 06:54 AM.. Reason: I know that line needed Something added.
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Old 05-13-2018, 06:26 AM
 
3,803 posts, read 2,466,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I'm not at all sure what you mean by this, but the natural world (or universe, Dude) is a good way to go, and frankly that book you mention is going to throw most people off, especially if they think of it as a message FROM God rather than various perceptions ABOUT God. Even rational philosophy in what is known as enlightened self-interest working best in a society where people are committed to the best interests of evryone in any situation should be a big help. Incidentallythat is the essential message of Jesus and He promised a Spirit of that character, not a book.
Huh?
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Old 05-13-2018, 06:46 AM
 
37,293 posts, read 10,069,311 times
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Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
Huh?
Nate is talking sortagod -agnosticism. Like most irreligious theists, he is talking about a non religion -specific cosmic mind which made everything and may be interested in us (Theist) or not (Deist). The argument is based on various I/D and First cause arguments and not scripture. Indeed rejection of scripture is generally what turned them into sortagoddists in the first place.

This is why my mate Troutdude and I may politely disagree academically about a sort of god, we both agree on the Bible.
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Old 05-13-2018, 06:54 AM
 
3,803 posts, read 2,466,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Nate is talking sortagod -agnosticism. Like most irreligious theists, he is talking about a non religion -specific cosmic mind which made everything and may be interested in us (Theist) or not (Deist). The argument is based on various I/D and First cause arguments and not scripture. Indeed rejection of scripture is generally what turned them into sortagoddists in the first place.

This is why my mate Troutdude and I may politely disagree academically about a sort of god, we both agree on the Bible
.
How do you disagree academically about a sort of god? One believes it exist and the other one doesn't?
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