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Old 05-13-2018, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Southern California
1,839 posts, read 1,752,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
there is a difference between evidence and proof and that distinction is not always honored. I believe there is evidence in the way things work, especially in a society as it is more aware and attempting to honor the concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation that IS the central message of Christ (followers of Jesus know it as agape).
This is a good definition for agape.

"Agape is considered to be the Love originating from God or Christ for mankind."

Also known as "God's Divine Love."
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:19 PM
 
3,803 posts, read 2,466,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
there is a difference between evidence and proof and that distinction is not always honored. I believe there is evidence in the way things work, especially in a society as it is more aware and attempting to honor the concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation that IS the central message of Christ
(followers of Jesus know it as agape).
What does any of this have to do with the question?
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Southern California
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Apparently this James E. Padgett claims to have been "channeling" through automatic writing. I have not evaluated what he has to say.
This was from 1914 through 1920. He received automatic writing messages first from his wife, family and friends and then from Jesus, his disciples and many well-known religious and historic spirits.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:22 PM
 
3,803 posts, read 2,466,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
This is a good definition for agape.

"Agape is considered to be the Love originating from God or Christ for mankind."

Also known as "God's Divine Love."
Man is not capable of agape love.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,917 posts, read 7,395,496 times
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Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
Okay, because I think some posters have debunked the natural world as evidence for any God...what say you?
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Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
What does any of this have to do with the question?
As noted, the answer is to your follow up statement about the question, as noted.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
Well technology has improved a lot since 2000 years ago, so historical evidence is what we relying upon, along with "the book".

The bible is filled with errors and contradictions. The text itself even contains errors that took 2,000 years to correct, and even then only after Ugaritic texts had been discovered and translated.


That the Hebrews were polytheists is unmistakably clear, since it is plainly stated that Terah was the chief priest at the temple in the city of Ur, whose principal deity was Ninurta. Ninurta was a deity in a pantheon of twelve gods consisting of Enlil and his sons and a daughter, Ninurta, Adad, Utu, Nin and Ianna, and Enki and his sons Enzu, Ningishzidda, Nergal, Dumuzi and Usimu.


The pantheon of twelve was most like Proto-Indo-European in origin, since every culture from the Gaelic and Celtic tribes in the British Isles, to the Norse and other Scandinavian groups, south to Egypt and east to Mojendaro and Harrapo in Pakistan-India and every group in-between worshiped the same pantheon of twelve and always eleven men and one woman, albeit with different names. Ianna was known as Ishtar, Ashera, Isis, Aphrodite and Venus in other cultures.


The fact that Terah, Abram and Serai (their Sumerian-Akkadian names before being changed to the Canaanite Abraham and Sarah -- and that's a big clue in and of itself) go to Haran is not the least bit shocking or unexpected, since Haran was the principal city for Ninurta in the Hurrian Kingdom.


Only later did cultures, including the Hebrews, shift to henotheism, which is taking a deity in the pantheon of twelve and elevating that deity above the other deities.


It was only after the Babylonians became monaltrists that the Hebrews wanted to become monaltrists, too.


The Hebrews-Israelites-Jews are not monotheists. Monotheism is the worship of one god: there is only one god, there never has been any other gods, and there never will be any other gods.


The Old Testament states in no uncertain terms there are other gods, and even names the other gods by name, and often on more than one occasion.


As a christian, one would have to reject the Old Testament in order to truly be a monotheist.


In their shift to monaltry, the Babylonians adopted the Sumerian-Akkadian god Enzu, whose name translated into Marduk in the Amorite language.


After adopting Marduk as their national god, the Babylonians embarked on the task of completely re-writing their mytho-historical texts.


As they copied the older Sumerian-Akkadian texts, where ever it was Enlil or Enki or Ningishzidda, Ninurta, Utu, Nin or Nergal who did something, the Babylonians replaced the name with "Marduk", so that it was Marduk who did everything from the creation of the heavens and Earth, to the creation of man, the deluge and anything else. The Babylonians also assigned all of the attributes of the other gods to Marduk. Although they sometimes over-lapped, all the gods had a particular expertise or attribute in something: Nergal in mining and metallurgy, Ningishzidda in the stars, planets, calendars and time-keeping, Ninurta in warfare and weapons, others in writing and record-keeping, ship-building and navigation, agricuture, and wisdom and kingship. They gave all those things to Marduk.


The Hebrews did basically the same thing.


The Hebrews worshiped the same pantheon as the Ugarits, which consisted of El the chief god, plus El Shaddai, El Elyon, El Berith, Asherah, Baal, Mot, Yam, and even Yahweh among others.


The Hebrews also embarked on a scheme to re-write their mytho-history, but not to the extreme the Babylonians did. Where ever it was Enlil or Enki or Ningishzidda who did something, they simply replaced the name with elohim. Where ever El Shaddai (actually a Sumerian word), El Elyon or El Berith appear, the Hebrews try to claim they were one in the same with Yahweh.


I suspect it had a lot to do with the social fabric. The Amorite kings brought in foreigners from everywhere to function as civil servants, run the courts, collect taxes, engage in commerce, keep records, educate the elite and perform arts. The Hebrews were a much more tightly knitted group wary of foreigners.


We know from historical records in Ugarit that Egypt pushed its hegemony and exercised suzerainty in the Levant. So, while the Hebrews might have thrown off the yoke of the Egyptians, so did everyone else in the region, and there was no exodus, except for Egyptian administrators and military leaving the Levant.


We know from the Ugaritic language, that Hebrew is Ugarit without the case endings for the accusative, nominative, dative, genitive, locative and vocative.


That would only be possible if Hebrews were in contact with Ugarit for several centuries, and given that Ugarit was destroyed circa 1300 CE, that destroys any claims of an exodus, not to mention the Hebrews copied Ugaritic poems and myths virtually word-for-word.


That's what the historical evidence tells us.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:30 PM
 
3,803 posts, read 2,466,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
As noted, the answer is to your follow up statement about the question, as noted.
You didn't address anything related to disproving the natural world.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:58 PM
 
6,719 posts, read 3,988,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
One of the things that non-believers, and even some of us believers are always going to question, is why do we just have a book left behind?
As somebody who is moderate theist and deep thinker, I would like everyone to be on the same page and facing the same unbiased judgement at the end of their time on Earth.
I don't believe that other Religions, ie non-Bible believers, or non-believers are doomed, nor should they be.
What are your thoughts?
Your mistake is to assume that "God" is actually some allegorical and mythological character from some ancient book men wrote thousands of years ago. That's not God...just a literary representation of God, and not real. A character in a book has no ability to do anything.
Correct that erroneous idea and you might gain greater understanding, and greater potential to get hip to the real deal about GOD.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:18 PM
 
38,809 posts, read 26,102,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Your mistake is to assume that "God" is actually some allegorical and mythological character from some ancient book men wrote thousands of years ago. That's not God...just a literary representation of God, and not real. A character in a book has no ability to do anything.
Correct that erroneous idea and you might gain greater understanding, and greater potential to get hip to the real deal about GOD.
Hi Gldn,
A very successful marketer pointed out that you cannot reach someone where they ARE by pointing out that where they are is mythological BS, crap, or other pejoratives. As a matter of fact, our own Tzaph goes out of her way to point that out to me repeatedly. I am beginning to see the light. We have to reach people where they ARE not where we think they ought to be. It is something Gaylen and I have been struggling to do in my thread. Glad to see you posting, my friend.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:25 PM
 
37,293 posts, read 10,069,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
Well, perhaps, it was Jesus and not Luke who wrote about Bethlehem:

"I was born in Bethlehem, as you know, in a manger and when I was a few days old, my parents took me to Egypt in order to avoid the soldiers of Herod who were sent to destroy me and who did kill a great number of male infants of less than two years of age. The Bible story of my birth and the flight of my parents and the murder of the innocents is substantially correct; and I only wish to add to it that when my parents arrived in Bethlehem, they were not compelled to seek the manger of a stable in order that I might be born on account of poverty - for they were supplied with funds and everything that was needed to make my birth comfortable for my mother and as a matter of fact, my father was not poor in the world's goods as poverty was considered in those days."

He writes further:

"I was never in the presence of the Jewish priests, expounding to them the law and asking questions when about twelve years of age, as stated in the Bible, and not before my first appearance after I became a man did I attempt to show priest or layman that I was the messenger of the Father, and sent by Him to proclaim the glad tidings of immortality restored, and of the great Love of the Father which was necessary to make all men at-one with Him, and to give them a home in His Kingdom." Jesus, 6.17.1915
"I'm never so stupid as when I'm being smart" (Linus van Pelt).

Of course, I was thinking Luke was confirming his Gospel rather than Jesus giving his own version. That said, I maintain that the Bethlehem nativity is not true, either in Matthew's or Luke's version, and that's why I reject these spirit messages, as I did years ago and have done since.

Sorry, but I have to respond to the claim. Anyone who prefers to believe then rather than believe me, if free to do so. So he denies the Lucan story. I must have just Glanced at it without reading it properly. Sorry.
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