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My observation is that the people who most kick and scream at "there is a plan" are the very same people who balk at and outright resist and reject taking responsibility for their own character refinement. They blame others. They deny they have free will. Anything to avoid looking within and taking responsibility.
I don't think that's true. I'd say that, if anything, the people who reject the master plan concept are the ones who are most likely to realize that the opportunities and burdens of free will are on each of us in each moment. We can't simply assume that everything is working out "just as it is supposed to," and we can't look at suffering people and say "It's all for the best" because they planned, of their own free will, to be born into poverty, or born into a war zone, or have abusive parents, etc. To me that seems like a form of perverse rationalization for the horrors that people experience. It's all for the best that this child dies of cancer? I say no. I say it's messed up. I say it's evidence that there is no master plan - or, if there is a master plan, it is a plan that is basically indifferent to human suffering.
gentlemen don't do snark.
neither do scholars.
nor do those with integrity.
sarcasm and malice are not effective tools of communication.
snark
Use of sarcasm or malice in speech; snide remarks
I'm not so sure I agree. Sometimes people say or write things that are so foolish or ignorant that it may require a little snark or sarcasm to get them to pay attention.
A constant diet of snark or sarcasm...no. But an occasional dose of it is sometimes very helpful.
And, people who push their religion onto to other people are not gentlemen and have no integrity.
I don't think that's true. I'd say that, if anything, the people who reject the master plan concept are the ones who are most likely to realize that the opportunities and burdens of free will are on each of us in each moment. We can't simply assume that everything is working out "just as it is supposed to," and we can't look at suffering people and say "It's all for the best" because they planned, of their own free will, to be born into poverty, or born into a war zone, or have abusive parents, etc. To me that seems like a form of perverse rationalization for the horrors that people experience. It's all for the best that this child dies of cancer? I say no. I say it's messed up. I say it's evidence that there is no master plan - or, if there is a master plan, it is a plan that is basically indifferent to human suffering.
we don't say it about others. to others we offer kindness, compassion, support, understanding, and generosity.
we apply it to ourselves and use it as a framework for growth and self improvement and healing and advancement *
it is recognizing, knowing, and understanding the difference between "blame" and "responsibility"
and putting that into practical application
example: taking responsibility for our thought, speech, and action, instead of blaming others
in the parlance of mental health professionals and treatment for recovery of some of the very things discussed here such as abuse and trauma and addiction, it is learning how to grow out of being a victim, and into taking responsibility for our lives and well being. Or perhaps you are one of those who consider the entire field of mental health professionals and treatment as "woo" and reject it altogether, dismissing it out of hand because it is (to quote Mordant) unpleasant or inconvenient?
* here is how Miss H phrased it, the framework for growth and advancement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
...We actually have choices, even when coming back here....
Briefly, remember karma is not punishment...it is for learning, growth, understanding the nature of Self or Reality or Creation, etc...to reach God or Enlightenment or Heaven or Home or Union.
Each society or religion has there own words....
In this place before coming back here..we actually stand in front of a Council..think, a panel of Elders.
We present our case: "I wanna go back! I wanna be born blind, to a black family of poor alcoholics!! Yeah!"
(Because we are anxious to grow, learn, progress..we understand so much more now!)
Elders: " Well, Bill, we understand your enthusiasm...That alone should be enough for you to handle and you and all those around you will grow tremendously in wisdom, patience, love and selflessness."
....
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2018 at 11:05 AM..
we apply it to ourselves and use it as a framework for growth and self improvement and healing and advancement...
Here we agree, except I don't think you need to believe in a master plan in order to take this approach. The belief that "everything happens for a reason" gives no special advantage when seeking a framework for growth and healing - at least, not for everyone. For some people the Divine Plan assumption works well and, as I said, that's fine by me. But that approach does not generalize to everyone and - most importantly - people who have faith in the Divine Plan should beware that, if they present this belief as being true for everyone, then they are going to run into plenty of people who find it blatantly implausible (and, I would say, they find it implausible for very good reasons).
Faith in "everything has a reason" is an option for some people, but it is not a necessary framework for growth or good mental health. It is not a one-size-fits-all sort of belief. Generally speaking, people who place a high value on science and logic will not find it plausible. They will generally be better served seeking a different framework.
Here we agree, except I don't think you need to believe in a master plan in order to take this approach. The belief that "everything happens for a reason" gives no special advantage when seeking a framework for growth and healing - at least, not for everyone. For some people the Divine Plan assumption works well and, as I said, that's fine by me. But that approach does not generalize to everyone and - most importantly - people who have faith in the Divine Plan should beware that, if they present this belief as being true for everyone, then they are going to run into plenty of people who find it blatantly implausible (and, I would say, they find it implausible for very good reasons).
Faith in "everything has a reason" is an option for some people, but it is not a necessary framework for growth or good mental health. It is not a one-size-fits-all sort of belief. Generally speaking, people who place a high value on science and logic will not find it plausible.They will generally be better served seeking a different framework.
if a person rejects out of hand across the board the entire field of mental health professionals and addiction recovery, as many have on this board, waving it all away as "woo," then they do not have good mental health.
of course anyone can use their free will and say it is "blatantly implausible" that "everything happens for a reason." They simply will not progress in these areas, shown in bold in post below. A person has free will to ignore all of the following, and all of eternity to do so. For many people what's listed below is of absolutely no importance to them. They find it, to quote you Gaylen, "trite and sterile."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
...it is for learning, growth, understanding the nature of Self or Reality or Creation, etc...to reach God or Enlightenment or Heaven or Home or Union.
Each society or religion has there own words..
....and you and all those around you will grow tremendously in wisdom, patience, love and selflessness."....
go back and read the whole post from Miss H, not just this snippet.
Gaylen you talk about doors and what's next for you and what's behind those doors.
This is it. Every door that is in front of you opens on to this.
You can reject it all day long, up one side and down the other.
And there you stay stuck until you walk through this door.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2018 at 12:31 PM..
if a person rejects out of hand across the board the entire field of mental health professionals and addiction recovery, as many have on this board, waving it all away as "woo," then they do not have good mental health.
Probably true. Thankfully, I have not done that.
Quote:
...of course anyone can use their free will and say it is "blatantly implausible" that "everything happens for a reason."
I don't think you are applying the concept of free will quite right here. I didn't use my free will to simply "decide" that I was going to believe that "everything has a reason" is implausible. Rather, I place high value on reason and logic, so - in line with these natural inclinations - I used my free will to seek every argument and source of empirical evidence I could find (for and against the notion). The point of that exercise was to inform my intuitions (because intuitions can change over time, especially in light of logic and evidence).
The net result was an overwhelming intuitive feeling that "the Divine Plan" just don't fly. And it is not because I didn't give it a fair shake. I've read way, way more books and articles in favor of karma, reincarnation, NDEs, trance channeling, etc,, than I have read criticisms of these ideas. I spent two years meditating with gurus and, 40 years later, I still meditate (and still pray sometimes, as you like to keep pointing out). But the bottom line, for me, is that no one - not even God - chose for growth to be a painful process. It just is (or, at least, it just is for all human beings I'm aware of - even Buddha and Jesus had to get a bit dizzy playing on that merry-go-round).
As I said in my earlier post, I don't think even God has a choice here, and not even God has an option to short-cut the process. If God exists, and if God is a loving God who cares about human suffering, then the blatantly obvious fact of wide-scale human suffering implies that God is more like a gardener, and not much at all like an engineer (either that, or God is a ridiculously bad engineer...is that too snarky to say?).
A gardener does not have a perfect plan for every detail of growth in the garden (or, even if She does have a perfect plan, the naturally messy nature of life insures that Her best laid plans will almost certainly get shredded, at least to some extent, by the free-wheeling free wills of mice and men). So the bottom line, for me, is that one way or another things are, to a significant degree, a mucked up mess (especially from the viewpoints of individuals).
This doesn't mean that progress is impossible. I have faith that progress does actually occur. The garden, overall, does have a lot of lush greenery and bears some excellent fruit. But if I get hit by a bus, it is not because me and the bus driver planned it. No. It's because a rabbit got into the garden and chomped on my leaves, so to speak - because that's the sort of unpredictable and annoying sorts of things that can happen in a garden.
And, one more note: I know that you and MPhD and others don't like when I say this but, technically, there does not really need to be a "Gardener" exactly. Beautiful growth can occur in a forest or a field of wildflowers.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 05-31-2018 at 01:30 PM..
I don't think you are applying the concept of free will quite right here. I didn't use my free will to simply "decide" that I was going to believe that "everything has a reason" is implausible. Rather, I place high value on reason and logic, so - in line with these natural inclinations - I used my free will to seek every argument and source of empirical evidence I could find (for and against the notion). The point of that exercise was to inform my intuitions (because intuitions can change over time, especially in light of logic and evidence).
The net result was an overwhelming intuitive feeling that "the Divine Plan" just don't fly. And it is not because I didn't give it a fair shake. I've read way, way more books and articles in favor of karma, reincarnation, NDEs, trance channeling, etc,, than I have read criticisms of these ideas. I spent two years meditating with gurus and, 40 years later, I still meditate (and still pray sometimes, as you like to keep pointing out). But the bottom line, for me, is that no one - not even God - chose for growth to be a painful process. It just is (or, at least, it just is for all human beings I'm aware of - even Buddha and Jesus had to get a bit dizzy playing on that merry-go-round).
As I said in my earlier post, I don't think even God has a choice here, and not even God has an option to short-cut the process. If God exists, and if God is a loving God who cares about human suffering, then the blatantly obvious fact of wide-scale human suffering implies that God is more like a gardener, and not much at all like an engineer (either that, or God is a ridiculously bad engineer...is that too snarky to say?).
A gardener does not have a perfect plan for every detail of growth in the garden (or, even if She does have a perfect plan, the naturally messy nature of life insures that Her best laid plans will almost certainly get shredded, at least to some extent, by the free-wheeling free wills of mice and men). So the bottom line, for me, is that one way or another things are, to a significant degree, a mucked up mess.
This doesn't mean that progress is impossible. I have faith that progress does actually occur. The garden, overall, does have a lot of lush greenery and bears some excellent fruit. But if I get hit by a bus, it is not because me and the bus driver planned it. No. It's because a rabbit got into the garden and chomped on my leaves, so to speak - because that's the sort of unpredictable and annoying sorts of things that can happen in a garden.
of course you choose what to believe or not.
that is free will, you using your free choice,
because you are responsible for every iota of your thought, speech, action, feelings and yes beliefs.
if you see yourself as a plant or a rabbit, then that is what you choose to believe.
if you see life as a "mucked up mess," that too is what you choose to believe.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2018 at 01:56 PM..
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That's put me in my place! 
Dm
Dear lady, you and I are no longer discussing anything.
