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Old 02-10-2019, 06:36 PM
 
1,502 posts, read 316,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Perhaps the OP meant, there is no right or wrong if itís a void after death.
And this argument actually has some weight in it.
Um, NO, it doesn't. Sorry.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:24 PM
 
Location: TX
6,493 posts, read 5,145,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Perhaps the OP meant, there is no right or wrong if itís a void after death.
And this argument actually has some weight in it.
That's a good question; I've never thought about what it might mean in terms of objective morality. If everyone ceases to exist after death (and by that I, for one, am referring to the heat death of the universe itself), then what we do has no real significance. We won't be harmed, benefit from, regret or be proud of anything, because we won't exist. So I guess, my response to right/wrong here is just... Doesn't matter. Even if morality is objective beyond our extinction, it won't make any more difference than mathematical truths continuing to exist.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:13 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,234 posts, read 238,059 times
Reputation: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavalier View Post
Why bother with anything in this life? EVERYTHING is meaningless, right?


Isn't it?


If it just goes blank/dark/black when we die...what does anything matter?
Because it matters NOW - before we die!
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
20,981 posts, read 9,806,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Because it matters NOW - before we die!
So simply, but perfectly put. When I read/hear people saying "then why does it matter", I just can't understand why they think what we do on earth while we're here is not important UNLESS there's a god. My goodness, how we treat other human being TODAY matters more than almost anything else.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:36 PM
 
272 posts, read 48,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Perhaps the OP meant, there is no right or wrong if itís a void after death.
And this argument actually has some weight in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
That's a good question; I've never thought about what it might mean in terms of objective morality. If everyone ceases to exist after death (and by that I, for one, am referring to the heat death of the universe itself), then what we do has no real significance. We won't be harmed, benefit from, regret or be proud of anything, because we won't exist. So I guess, my response to right/wrong here is just... Doesn't matter. Even if morality is objective beyond our extinction, it won't make any more difference than mathematical truths continuing to exist.
Is it a good question? I'm not so sure. CorporateCowboy was responding to the OP, and not to you, but their simple response is equally appropriate here:

"Because it matters NOW - before we die!"

Like others, I see no reason to predicate our desire (indeed, our need) to do good on the presence or absence of an afterlife. It has relevance in the here-and-now, and it has continuing relevance after we are gone for those we love, and it has still-continuing relevance after they are gone for the rest of mankind.

Now, if your response to GoCardinals referred strictly to that point in the far-distant future when we are ALL extinct, and the universe with us... well, fine, then I guess nothing we did really matters. But that's a theoretical that may never happen. I suspect most respondents are focused on the more immediate time point when each of us dies as an individual, which we know will happen. Within the context of this more immediate reality, I have never understood those who claim their lives would have no meaning, or their actions would not matter, but for the promise of an afterlife.
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:12 PM
 
Location: TX
6,493 posts, read 5,145,414 times
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I don't think anyone is arguing that we should stop doing good things, but asking what the real significance of doing good is. Ultimately, what is the meaning of doing good vs doing bad. Identity is a necessary relation. If what's right becomes neutral after we die out, was it ever really right to begin with? How could our becoming extinct change the identity of rightness/wrongness? Surely, no other objective reality becomes something else because no one exists to acknowledge it (indeed, this is what it means for something to objectively exist!)
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:32 PM
 
4,987 posts, read 2,429,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
That's a good question; I've never thought about what it might mean in terms of objective morality. If everyone ceases to exist after death (and by that I, for one, am referring to the heat death of the universe itself), then what we do has no real significance. We won't be harmed, benefit from, regret or be proud of anything, because we won't exist. So I guess, my response to right/wrong here is just... Doesn't matter. Even if morality is objective beyond our extinction, it won't make any more difference than mathematical truths continuing to exist.
Whoa! back up, because Scripture teaches the 'Earth abides forever' as per Ecclesiastes 1:4 B
Jesus referred to Psalm 37:9-11 when he promise that humble meek people would inherit the Earth.
Many being resurrected back to physical life on Earth - John 3:13; Acts 2:34, and some to heavenly life - Rev. 20:6.
We are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
We don't pray to 'be taken away' or 'taken up' but for Jesus to come!
Come and bring the benefits to Earth as described at Rev. 22:2 when mankind on Earth will see the return of the Genesis 'Tree of Life' on Earth for the 'healing' of earth's nations. Healing as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of ' healing ' when No one will say, "I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24; Gen. 12:3; 22:18
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:36 PM
 
4,987 posts, read 2,429,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Perhaps the OP meant, there is no right or wrong if itís a void after death.
And this argument actually has some weight in it.
I find regarding No resurrection at 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 that mankind could just eat and drink as per verse 32.
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Old Today, 06:05 AM
 
3,606 posts, read 2,631,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Again, I attribute people's behavior to them. And especially if I were on board with just labeling people "good" or "bad", I would say that for those people who were religious and did evil things, they were just plain evil and it had nothing to do with religion.
And for many of them that would simply be wrong. The parents who watch their child die of treatable illnesses and withhold the simple treatment that would either cure them or help them mediate and live with the condition - are not evil people. They are just misguided by the religions teachings. Teaching that - of you believed them too - you would likely let the children die needlessly too.

Many of the awful things done by AnjezŽ Gonxhe Bojaxhiu also spring to mind. Would she have been more inclined to relieve the suffering of others rather than almost revel in it without the religious notion those that suffer are more valuable in the eyes of god? Perhaps she could have - it is not an unheard of position without religion to think that suffering is a good thing. But it is massively rare to the point of being a statistical non-entity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I would do the same for people doing good things and conclude that religion causes people to do good as well.
It is possible religion sometimes makes people do good things they might otherwise not do - but the comparison is tenuous at best because I have yet to see them do good things that many many other people are not also doing without any religious motivation. Charity work is a great example here. For every piece of charity work I have ever seen being done by religious motivation - I see the same work having been done by those without.

I can not say that about awful things like watching a child you wish the best for and love deeply die when you could easily do something about it. The parallels to people without religious motivation are a lot harder to come by.

So the bigger picture is more than just whether religion has ever made people do good or bad things - I am sure it achieves both. The bigger picture for me is looking at whether these good or bad things would happen commonly - or even at all - with or without religion. And I am yet to find a single good thing that fits that dynamic with any regularity or even at all - in the same way we can the bad. And that distinction is more important than I think you have thus far been willing to grant or acknowledge.

But further than that even where religion does motivate someone to do some good where they otherwise would not have (we assume) - the bigger picture also demands we look at the cost to themselves or others. If we use something - be it religion or a vaccine or a political change or a tax with the view of causing positive outcomes in our society we can not just focus on the positive outcomes and cheer them. We have to look at the costs, detriment, side effects, and much more of those outcomes and judge the value of the outcome as a whole - and not just one cherry picked effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
You lost me. If they're doing horrific things to their children, they're neither good people nor do they love them. That seems to be a much more plausible and less ad hoc conclusion.
And it is the wrong conclusion once again. Given what they believe - their actions are not just not evil - they are actually the _right thing to do_. That is the horror of it. If a person genuinely believes that the suffering of the child now will be repaid multiple times over in an eternal after life - or if a person genuinely believes that medical intervention is offensive to god and will put the eternal soul of their child at risk - then the horrific things we jail such people for doing are not indicative of evil parents who do not love their children. It is the exact opposite. It is _exactly_ what a loving parent should and would do in the light of those beliefs.

That we can see the belief is wrong and without a shred of actual evidence that there is a god or an after life - is why we see their actions (or inactions) for the horror they are. But if their beliefs were the reality then it is in fact _us_ are parents who bring medical intervention and stuff to our children who are the "evil" ones doing horrific things to our child. Giving them a brief reprieve from suffering in this life at the cost of an _eternity_ of it later on. If we are in fact living in that reality then it is _us_ that are the awful horrific parents!

There is just no evidence - of even the smallest kind - that that is in fact the reality in which we live. But if it is - I am a truly awful parent and those parents in jail right now are the heroes.
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