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Old 05-29-2018, 05:38 AM
 
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So how many believe that all the kingdoms of the world can be seen at one time?


Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Matt 4:8

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. Luke 4:5
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:10 AM
 
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So how many don't believe that all the kingdoms of the world can be seen in the same moment of time?
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:35 AM
 
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See, this is a good example of the difference the way believers and non’s think.


You are concerned about the devil showing jebus.


I wonder, if it was just jebus and the devil, who was there to document it and why should anyone believe it true?
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:45 AM
 
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This is another tall story common to Matthew and Luke but not found in Mark. Thus it is "Q" material added in and, since Mark gives not hint of it(aside the common temptation motif), it isn't - in my view - true. So arguing about how it could work (some adroit invention might do it) is beside the point.
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Old 05-29-2018, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
This is another tall story common to Matthew and Luke but not found in Mark. Thus it is "Q" material added in and, since Mark gives not hint of it(aside the common temptation motif), it isn't - in my view - true. So arguing about how it could work (some adroit invention might do it) is beside the point.
It is an expansion on Mark 1:13 - He was there in the wilderness forty days tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals; and the angels were ministering to him.

Compare Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
4:2 When he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was hungry afterward.

plus extra stuff plus

4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.

So if the extra stuff is part of the pre Markan Q material, why did he leave it out? To argue that he only knew part of the story is ad hoc, and if Mark can invent a large part of his gospel story, then why could Matthew not invent the extra material, just as he did his nativity?
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Old 05-29-2018, 08:32 AM
 
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Yes. Of course, the nativities are not Q because they contradict and are thus individual inventions.But Matthew and Luke are obviously based on common material, added to what Mark has as just ba 'temptation'with no details. That is what I call "Q" though some use "Q" for the Synoptic original Text.

("Q" so far comprises the details of temptation, John's question, The 'sermon' material, 'I will follow you' and really not much more that I can recall from then on.)
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,837 posts, read 9,645,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadwood View Post
So how many believe that all the kingdoms of the world can be seen at one time?


Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Matt 4:8

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. Luke 4:5
Stand by for the Christian apologetics of....


Ah...but! When it says 'world' it means the 'world' as known to the people THEN. So 'the world' meant their back gardens...'cause that was all the 'world' that they knew.....like the 'world flood' was only local...because it flooded the 'world' as they knew it...see?'
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes. Of course, the nativities are not Q because they contradict and are thus individual inventions.But Matthew and Luke are obviously based on common material, added to what Mark has as just ba 'temptation'with no details. That is what I call "Q" though some use "Q" for the Synoptic original Text.

("Q" so far comprises the details of temptation, John's question, The 'sermon' material, 'I will follow you' and really not much more that I can recall from then on.)
Why obviously?

If both are using a common source, copying some, rewriting the rest, then you will get the same result as if:

1 Matthew used Luke, copying some, rewriting the rest.
2 Luke used Matthew, copying some, rewriting the rest.
3 Luke used Matthew, who used a proto Luke, copying some, rewriting the rest.

What you see as obvious, I see as a 50/50 at best.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Why obviously?

If both are using a common source, copying some, rewriting the rest, then you will get the same result as if:

1 Matthew used Luke, copying some, rewriting the rest.
2 Luke used Matthew, copying some, rewriting the rest.
3 Luke used Matthew, who used a proto Luke, copying some, rewriting the rest.

What you see as obvious, I see as a 50/50 at best.
Ok I should perhaps have said "apparently'. But comparison shows such a correspondence of wording that they have to be based on the same text. Now, you suggest that one of them copied the other, but that' can't be, as the massive discrepancies of nativities and resurrections precludes one of them copying the other.

There are other clues too, in the use of the 'Sermon' material used (pretty much) only by Matthew and Luke. Matthew has all of this recited in one indigestible lump on the mountain near capernaum (not that there is one, as i can recall) but Luke has half of it in Galilee, but half strewn through 10 -19 which ostensible recounts teachings on the way to Jerusalem. Notably the 'Lord's prayer' appears in matthew'd sermon, but Luke has itbtaught to the disciples, it seems for the first time, after leaving Galilee. This is more evidence that they cannot be based one on the other or this glaring contradictions would not have happened. And the samesympton on imported text is found in this Matthew/.Luke material - unless a context is given (e.g the temptation) they do not agree on where in the gospel it should go.

Have I made my case?
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,351 posts, read 402,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Ok I should perhaps have said "apparently'. But comparison shows such a correspondence of wording that they have to be based on the same text. Now, you suggest that one of them copied the other, but that' can't be, as the massive discrepancies of nativities and resurrections precludes one of them copying the other.

There are other clues too, in the use of the 'Sermon' material used (pretty much) only by Matthew and Luke. Matthew has all of this recited in one indigestible lump on the mountain near capernaum (not that there is one, as i can recall) but Luke has half of it in Galilee, but half strewn through 10 -19 which ostensible recounts teachings on the way to Jerusalem. Notably the 'Lord's prayer' appears in matthew'd sermon, but Luke has itbtaught to the disciples, it seems for the first time, after leaving Galilee. This is more evidence that they cannot be based one on the other or this glaring contradictions would not have happened. And the samesympton on imported text is found in this Matthew/.Luke material - unless a context is given (e.g the temptation) they do not agree on where in the gospel it should go.

Have I made my case?
Unfortunately not. The massive discrepancies just mean the rewrite were major ones. As in the contradictions, the stories about Lazarus in Luke and John are so wildly different precisely because one is 'correcting' the theology behind the others account. Whether resurrection of the dead is evidence for Christianity or not. Luke says no, John says yes.

As for the sermon, if it is from a common source, why does Luke break it up, or Matthew lump it all together? It makes more sense to me that Luke breaks it up because Matthews sermon breaks up the story. And Luke, a masterful story teller can not have that.

I think you are expecting the gospels to agree because you believe they are based on a common source. I see the gospels contradicting each other because each writer is pushing different political and theological agendas.
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