Question for non-Calvinists who believe in Hell (eternal torment) (grace, genesis, bible)

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

The issue in Eph. is not whether 'He predestines us "according to the good pleasure of His will"' but what he predestines us too and on what basis does he do so? And it is not talking about justification but who he knows of is IN CHRIST. That is what Eph. says! In Eph. 1 Paul is not discussing how one gets IN Christ but what their destination is and how God sees to it that they will get there - according to the good pleasure of His will. It does not say he chose us TO BE in Christ but chose us IN CHRIST. The starting point of election is for those already in Christ. And we know what Paul taught as to how one gets in Christ - by FAITH. Here in Eph. Paul tell you that God foreknew those in Christ.

To say that Calvinists don't have mental gymnastics is just silly.

I did not say it was about corporate election.

You seem to be responding like a robot! I didn't misread or manipulate any texts.

So, how does God know that? Does he look down the corridor of time to see who will choose him and who doesn't?

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

So, how does God know that? Does he look down the corridor of time to see who will choose him and who doesn't?

It's called Omniscience! Eph.1 tells you 'he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.'

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

It's called Omniscience! Eph.1 tells you 'he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.'

Yes. I realize that. But to a non-Calvinist...how does one believe that God predestines? Based on what? You said he predestines those "in Christ". So...he just knows who is in Christ, but he doesn't predestine them to be so?

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Yes. I realize that. But to a non-Calvinist...how does one believe that God predestines? Based on what? You said he predestines those "in Christ". So...he just knows who is in Christ, but he doesn't predestine them to be so?

Correct! Predestination in the NT is from the standpoint of already being in Christ - that is what it is to be elect/elected. It is a predestination to glorification not justification. It is a promise of comfort for those in Christ that God will bring them to that state - the Holy Spirit is a mark and a down payment of that promise. He predestined on the basis of foreknowledge regarding who is in Christ - he knew this before the foundation of the world. No where is predestination linked to unbelievers destined to hell.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Correct! Predestination in the NT is from the standpoint of already being in Christ - that is what it is to be elect/elected. It is a predestination to glorification, not justification. It is a promise of comfort for those in Christ that God will bring them to that state - the Holy Spirit is a mark and a down payment of that promise. He predestined on the basis of foreknowledge regarding who is in Christ - he knew this before the foundation of the world. No where is predestination linked to unbelievers destined to hell.

Reading this kind of insanely irrational thinking is very depressing and its prevalence does not bode well for the future of humankind.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Reading this kind of insanely irrational thinking is very depressing and its prevalence does not bode well for the future of humankind.

Are you referring to the Op or my post that you quoted?

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Correct! Predestination in the NT is from the standpoint of already being in Christ - that is what it is to be elect/elected. It is a predestination to glorification not justification. It is a promise of comfort for those in Christ that God will bring them to that state - the Holy Spirit is a mark and a down payment of that promise. He predestined on the basis of foreknowledge regarding who is in Christ - he knew this before the foundation of the world. No where is predestination linked to unbelievers destined to hell.

So how do you deal with the golden chain of salvation in Romans 8? It clearly teaches us that he foreknew us first, and that he predestined us to be justified. He foreknew us, he loved, us, and then he predestined us to e called, and justified.

Romans 8:29-30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30*And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. "

[Katie B.]

[quote=JesusLovingBaptist98;52191520]Let's start with four propositions.

1. God is all-wise, He does not make mistakes.
   
2. God is all-powerful.
   
3. God is all-knowing.
   
4. God creates every single human, in His image.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

Why do you believe that an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery lake, Hell?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, is He not sealing their fate by the mere *act* of creating their souls?

Is God not, in effect, creating these people solely for Hell by making them?

As a Calvinist, I would say God did this to display his glory as the Scriptures says.

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:21-24 - Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

But, obviously, non-Calvinists don't believe that.

I guess, my question is:

Why do you, as a non-Calvinist, believe God creates billions of people He knows full-well will suffer eternal torment in fire if He creates them, and nevertheless creates them still?

Thanks, brothers and sisters in Christ![/QUOTE
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Um, God doesn't create people just for them to go to Hell.
He gives them a clear choice.
It's where free will takes effect.
If they do end up going to Hell, it's because they made the decision not to accept Jesus as their Lord & Savior.
Nobody made that choice for them, they did that themselves.

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by Katie B.

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Um, God doesn't create people just for them to go to Hell.
He gives them a clear choice.
It's where free will takes effect.
If they do end up going to Hell, it's because they made the decision not to accept Jesus as their Lord & Savior.
Nobody made that choice for them, they did that themselves.

What verse says that? I'm not aware of any verse that says we have free will to choose or reject God. Have you ever heard of Pelagius? He taught that, and it was declared a heresy a loooong time ago.

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

So how do you deal with the golden chain of salvation in Romans 8? It clearly teaches us that he foreknew us first, and that he predestined us to be justified. He foreknew us, he loved, us, and then he predestined us to e called, and justified.

Romans 8:29-30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30*And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. "

It does not say he predestined them to justification - it says he predestined them (those he foreknew in Christ just like Eph.) to be conformed to the image of his son - Glorification (resurrected image). And those were called, by the gospel, and those were justified, and then glorified. Once again predestination is from the foreknowledge of these who are in Christ - from that point in eternity past God predestined them to glory. As such when the gospel is preached, in the present time of Paul's ministry, they will believe and be justified and as such be glorified. He is simply encouraging them with such hope.

For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared to the glory that will be revealed to us...

For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

The whole of Romans and Paul's teaching is clear unless you want to have a contradiction between Paul in Romans and Paul in Eph. Chapter 8 starts out with: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.