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Very early on, before the writings you refer to above were written, the early church had already accepted only the authority of the four-fold Gospel. That is, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
First attested to in the middle of the 2nd century AD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The later writings that you refer to didn't reflect the teachings of the apostles, and being written after the time of the apostles, did not have apostolic authority.
An authority alleged by the winning side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The Bauer thesis, to which you probably unknowingly allude, is simply not based on the evidence of either the New Testament, or of the early, as in first century, church.
Paul mentions 2 versions of Christianity in the first century AD. 2 Peter is arguing against a Christianity that argued the gospels were 'cleverly devised stories'. Whoever these people were, their texts were destroyed.
Even the gospel of John can be read as a Gnostic text (John 8:44 in it's original Greek).
Even Ignatius in Trallians says there were other Christians arguing against a physical Jesus, son of Mary, crucified by Pilate. Again, who they were, or what they wrote disappeared. So we know there were other versions of Christianity, we just do not know how many, as the writings of the losing side were either destroyed, or simply not copied.
The 4 gospels were not accepted into the canon and named until the late 2nd Century, and that was by Irenaeus. This is historical fact.
Prior to late 2nd Century it's a Twilight Zone of infighting, backstabbing, killing, and all sorts of un-Christian behaviors by Christians jockying for supremacy of their particular beliefs. There were Gnostics, Docetists, Ebionites, Marcionites, and a whole cornucopia of other factions of Christianity. None of them had any set collection of texts. So it's ludicrous for Mike555 to insist the 4 gospels were in place by the late 1st century. More than ludicrous it's downright dishonest and misleading.
Marcion had a selection of texts, around 130 - 150 AD. He created his own canon comprised of a version of Luke and some of Paul's letters (both fake and genuine). It was probably in response to Marcion that much of our New Testament was first thrown together, which explains the contradictions in different texts. This canon was amended slightly over the next 200 years.
Your assumption that the disciples of Jesus committed a conspiracy has no validity. Normal people are not willing to suffer and even die for something they know to be untrue.
Really? Even for a noble lie?
And how do we know they died for a lie, as the various Martyr accounts contradict each other?
How do we know they did not admit they lied as they were martyred? How do we know they were not killed because they finally admitted they had lied?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Your closed mindedness makes continued conversation pointless and a waste of time.
Yet you are the one relying on the arguments that what the first Christians said must be true when the large amount of apocryphal texts tells us the early Christians had no problem inventing their histories.
the word of the account in the bible? it just doesn't add up to a guy re-animating himself in the magical way.
beaten almost to death? crucified and lived? friends took him and he stay hidden or never made a full recovery? err, yeah, a lot more reasonable than died, woke up, and flew away.
That aint the story, you miss the entire point of the story.
And how do we know they died for a lie, as the various Martyr accounts contradict each other?
How do we know they did not admit they lied as they were martyred? How do we know they were not killed because they finally admitted they had lied?
Yet you are the one relying on the arguments that what the first Christians said must be true when the large amount of apocryphal texts tells us the early Christians had no problem inventing their histories.
There are no arguments, there is design, all the proof is in the design, that's all. It's like you are a person who never knew math and somebody shows you a new word named,'' 4.''
You put 2 and 2 together and they make four, except that you don't see the design, you don't even know numbers.
There are no arguments, there is design, all the proof is in the design, that's all. It's like you are a person who never knew math and somebody shows you a new word named,'' 4.''
You put 2 and 2 together and they make four, except that you don't see the design, you don't even know numbers.
While your interesting technique of not responding to what I have written makes for a larger range of possible topics, it does make the conversation sound like a badly written spy novel.
"The cow has bought no bananas".
"But mother is cooking the fish".
While your interesting technique of not responding to what I have written makes for a larger range of possible topics, it does make the conversation sound like a badly written spy novel.
"The cow has bought no bananas".
"But mother is cooking the fish".
Cool, Please teach me that, the cow has bought no bananas, but mother is cooking the fish, please, where EXACTLY does that come from, one of my favorites.
Cool, Please teach me that, the cow has bought no bananas, but mother is cooking the fish, please, where EXACTLY does that come from, one of my favorites.
It is of my own brain. But please feel free to use it.
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