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Old Yesterday, 02:27 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,721 posts, read 10,045,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
The only evidence of truth for the (Birth , Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ) is these men and witnesses did testified of this truth under the penalty of death. Men would only freely give their life for something that they knew was beyond a shadow of a doubt the unadulterated truth!!!
So all those Japanese soldiers that willingly gave their lives because they thought their emperor was a god were right? Were Jim Jones and David Koresh really Christ returned because their followers gave their lives for that belief? Really! 'They wouldn't die for something that wasn't true' is the most ridiculous and easily dismissed of all Christian apologetic. Of course people give their lives for things that aren't true. They always have and always will. That doesn't make their beliefs true. If it did then Islam would be true wouldn't it - because far more Muslims give their lives for Islam than Christians give theirs for Christianity.
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Old Yesterday, 04:47 AM
 
37,233 posts, read 10,034,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Lofty rhetoric, but not a stitch of historic reference to back it.

Where's you proof? The 12 apostles are never mentioned once in the secular historic record. For all practical purposes they were non-existent--ghosts.

How do you know they gave their lives? Because a rabble of disoriented pastors told you so? Where your historic proof the apostles even lived, much less died for their faith?

You see, Howest, you haven't a nickel's worth of evidence to back your claims. I know, I know--"The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!" Same stock answer I get from all Christians when I ask them to back their claims with something tangible.
Apart from the dubious stories of martyred disciples in Church tradition, we have only the stoning of Stephen in Acts and the killing of James, one of the sons of Zebedee, by Herod Agrippa - also in Acts. A Biography of Paul written surely by 'Luke' , and loosely based on Paul's letters and on Josephus, though he gets the order of the revolts of Judas the Galilean and Theudas reversed from that in Josephus and he makes Paul's escape from Damascus to avoid the Nabatean army (in Paul) an escape because (Luke says) a plot by 'The Jews' to kill him.

Luke also makes Herod Agrippa into a Bad Guy, persecuting the Church when he was actually a rather nice guy and Josephus doesn't mention any Church, let alone a persecution of it. But he does mention Agrippa's death after a short reign with an owl turning up as symbol of the impending death. Acts 12 also borrows this tale in Josephus - in fact copies it out - except the owl gets turned (of course) into an angel of the Lord. Can we really trust Luke, the writer of Acts any more than we can trust Luke, the writer of the gospel, with his changes (the angel's message at the tomb gets altered so the disciples have to stay in Jerusalem, not go to Galilee) and additions (the rejection at Nazareth gets shifted to the start of Jesus' mission with an attempt by Jesus' family neighbours to assassinate Jesus - and even that Mark and Matthew don't mention.

No, we cannot trust Luke or Acts in the killing of this one follower of Jesus, any more than we can trust the turning of a vague mention by Paul of persecuting the followers of Jesus into a circumstantial of a stoning (without any formalities, mark you) of this fellow Stephen who rather pops up out of nowhere so as to be a martyr. And in any case, he was no witness to the resurrection, so he died for something that he believed without really knowing that it was true.

No, people can and do die for what they believe in or even out of a sense of duty. It does not in any way prove their beliefs true, even if we can believe the death, which in the case of the martyrdoms in Acts, we really cannot. And those Traditional martyrdoms, from the early church, even less.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Yesterday at 04:57 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,896 posts, read 710,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
The only evidence of truth for the (Birth , Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ) is these men and witnesses did testified of this truth under the penalty of death. Men would only freely give their life for something that they knew was beyond a shadow of a doubt the unadulterated truth!!!
Except we do not know if these men did die for their beliefs. In fact if you look at the accounts of the alleged martyrdom, not one of them died for their beliefs in Jesus.

And some of the accounts mean the alleged martyrs died more than once.

And people DO die for what they believe, whether it is true or not.

And people ARE willing to die for a lie if they believe that lie will further their cause.

And if that is your only evidence, that leaves you with a problem.
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Old Yesterday, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
20,978 posts, read 9,800,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
So all those Japanese soldiers that willingly gave their lives because they thought their emperor was a god were right? Were Jim Jones and David Koresh really Christ returned because their followers gave their lives for that belief? Really! 'They wouldn't die for something that wasn't true' is the most ridiculous and easily dismissed of all Christian apologetic. Of course people give their lives for things that aren't true. They always have and always will. That doesn't make their beliefs true. If it did then Islam would be true wouldn't it - because far more Muslims give their lives for Islam than Christians give theirs for Christianity.
Thank you for this post. I was thinking along the same lines...but didn't have the time to put my thoughts down...and you did it better than I would have.
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Old Yesterday, 12:03 PM
 
10,717 posts, read 10,953,021 times
Reputation: 3263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
The only evidence of truth for the (Birth , Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ) is these men and witnesses did testified of this truth under the penalty of death. Men would only freely give their life for something that they knew was beyond a shadow of a doubt the unadulterated truth!!!

So you see, folks. Howest, super-Christian, has been called out as a big blowhard by half-dozen members here who have accused him of having nothing to back up his claims of how devoted the apostles were to their faith to the point of death. Requests for him to produce tangible evidence for his assertions all the apostles died for their faith have gone unanswered.

He's another one of these Christians who shoots off his mouth making grandiose claims about Jesus and then disappears like a puff of smoke, so typical of what we see around here when a simple request for historic proof is made by skeptics.

This is part of what irks the hell out of me about Christians. When you push them against the wall and yell, "Produce something!" all they have for their empty rhetoric is faith-based claims coming from what they were taught from the cradle. Just once I'd like to hear a Christian say,

"I make these claims about Jesus and the apostles and here's my historic proof to support them."

Want to know why it's never happened and why you'll never see it happen? Because Howest and jimmie and BaptistFundie and Ozzy haven't got one iota of proof outside the Bible to prove Jesus was the son of God and the apostles even existed, much less died for Jesus.

And God is supposedly in control of all this and wants us to believe in Jesus! Then He disappears in a puff of smoke too and leaves NOTHING tangible behind to prove Jesus was his son who died to save us from our sins! Some Christian god you guys worship!
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Old Yesterday, 12:19 PM
 
272 posts, read 48,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is part of what irks the hell out of me about Christians. When you push them against the wall and yell, "Produce something!" all they have for their empty rhetoric is faith-based claims coming from what they were taught from the cradle. Just once I'd like to hear a Christian say,

"I make these claims about Jesus and the apostles and here's my historic proof to support them."
That would be great but, given that it is not likely to happen, I would personally settle for...

"I admit we don't have any evidence for these claims, but they make me feel good, so I'm going to keep believing them anyway, even in the absence of evidence."

And yes, I realize this modified statement isn't much more likely to happen.
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM
 
10,717 posts, read 10,953,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
That would be great but, given that it is not likely to happen, I would personally settle for...

"I admit we don't have any evidence for these claims, but they make me feel good, so I'm going to keep believing them anyway, even in the absence of evidence."

And yes, I realize this modified statement isn't much more likely to happen.

Yes, you're exactly right, Heela. I'd settle for, "I admit we don't have any real evidence for these claims." This is what I had to admit to myself back in 2012 or so during my investigation into Christianity AS A CHRISTIAN. But I had nothing to lose by admitting it. Jimmie, BaptistFundie et.al. are probably members in good standing in their church with a huge circle of social contacts who are equally rabid about Christianity. For them to even question their beliefs out loud would ostracize them from their church, even their spouses and children. This is what keep thousands of atheist ministers in their pulpits. They can't risk losing their families, their jobs, no other way to support themselves. They have given all to Jesus, then found out it was all a sham and they are stuck. This is why the Clergy Project was founded by Richad Dawkins



Quote:
Welcome to The Clergy Project

Are you a religious professional who no longer
believes in the supernatural?


Have you remained in vocational ministry,
secretly hiding away your non-belief?


Are you struggling over where to go from here
with your life and career?

The Clergy Project - Religious Leaders Beyond Belief
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Old Yesterday, 12:51 PM
 
272 posts, read 48,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Yes, you're exactly right, Heela. I'd settle for, "I admit we don't have any real evidence for these claims." This is what I had to admit to myself back in 2012 or so during my investigation into Christianity AS A CHRISTIAN. But I had nothing to lose by admitting it. Jimmie, BaptistFundie et.al. are probably members in good standing in their church with a huge circle of social contacts who are equally rabid about Christianity. For them to even question their beliefs out loud would ostracize them from their church, even their spouses and children. This is what keep thousands of atheist ministers in their pulpits. They can't risk losing their families, their jobs, no other way to support themselves. They have given all to Jesus, then found out it was all a sham and they are stuck. This is why the Clergy Project was founded by Richad Dawkins

The Clergy Project - Religious Leaders Beyond Belief
And now you are truly hitting close to home, Thrill (I was going to say "preaching to the choir," but that sounds too much like church).

It took me several decades AS A CHRISTIAN before I could admit to myself. I had (and still have, to some extent) all those things to lose, and it took me even longer to admit to family and friends. One of the things that gave me the strength to come out was reading about ministers who had admitted their beliefs lacked sufficient basis to continue in the pulpit (editorial note: I purposely avoid saying "lost their faith," which implies it is something everyone should have, and should be looking for). I figure if these clergy could live honestly, with all they had at stake, why should I keep pretending?
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Old Today, 10:11 PM
 
10,717 posts, read 10,953,021 times
Reputation: 3263
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
And now you are truly hitting close to home, Thrill (I was going to say "preaching to the choir," but that sounds too much like church).

It took me several decades AS A CHRISTIAN before I could admit to myself. I had (and still have, to some extent) all those things to lose, and it took me even longer to admit to family and friends. One of the things that gave me the strength to come out was reading about ministers who had admitted their beliefs lacked sufficient basis to continue in the pulpit (editorial note: I purposely avoid saying "lost their faith," which implies it is something everyone should have, and should be looking for). I figure if these clergy could live honestly, with all they had at stake, why should I keep pretending?

I get if Christian ministers who secretly turn atheist stick with their "job". When a guy has a family to support--wife, kids, elderly parents--and the choice is a steady paycheck or the breadline, well--family comes first. Even before Jesus, I say. Hard call. I have nothing but sympathy and understanding for men in this predicament.
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