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Old 01-23-2019, 11:17 PM
 
201 posts, read 65,815 times
Reputation: 159

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Ok. So you believe in your god on faith alone. The fact that the Bible mentions real cities does not seem to be the fact that convinced you to believe as you do. I suspect you find it satisfying to some extent, but I also suspect that if some cities had never been found and simply existed as names it would not shake your faith at all.

Thanks for admitting that, and as you do not rely on this as the basis of your faith, I hope you can see how it is an unconvincing argument for others who do not share your faith.
If you do not believe in Jesus existed then I not to convince you. Even if one can convince you that Jesus existed, and there are many, many people that do believe in Jesus existed, including 1.8 billion Muslims, but they refuse to believe he is the son of God. I can't judge you or know what goes in your heart, and only God, even you don't believe in him knows. But I not here to win debates or do I care to do so. I did point to the non-Christian sources that refer to Jesus and the people and places that were linked to the Bible to answer the OP question, but I not here to win an argument. Believe what you believe in. Have a good day.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:26 AM
 
3,276 posts, read 622,229 times
Reputation: 1870
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You just don't get it. As far as we are concerned all the ancient writings from that era were secular because fiction was simply NOT a common occurrence.
You are not familiar with Homer's Iliad?

Quote:
Also, the preservation of manuscripts was not common either as the fate of the library at Alexandria attests. The writings may have been in what is considered mythical form or narrative story-telling form and filled with hyperbole and figurative language. But they were always about something important because writing was a tedious thing reserved for important purposes. (BTW, forget about accusing them of being fiction because that category is a relatively modern phenomenon in geologic terms. Few would have wasted their time on such meaningless writing let alone preserving them).
You have no way of substantiating your assertions. The fact is, no secular scribe, and the Romans had a LOT of scribes, documented all those phantasmagorical happenings. No reports, by anyone outside of the bible wrote about all those zombies wandering around. No one. Not concurrently, not 30 years later, not ever. That even was more miraculous than anything that Jesus was said to have done.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,163 posts, read 9,865,820 times
Reputation: 2461
Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
The Babylonian Talmud had been censored for around 800 years by the Catholic church due to the references to Jesus and it also was written before Jesus birth until 500 AD, however, there have been discoveries of the uncensored version of the Babylonian Talmud it can be deeply offensive to Christians.
Sanhedrin 43a, which in the Babylonian Talmud reads as follows:

'It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for forty days (saying): "He is going to be stoned because he practised sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf." But, not having found anything in his favour, they hanged him on the eve of Passover.'
http://legacy.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tynd...one_Brewer.pdf
It also says that Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman soldier, was conceived during menstruation and burnt his food. Do you believe what the Talmud says about him? If no, why do you believe that it is evidence for Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
Every major city listed in the Gospels and Acts, for example, has been located and excavated!
So? 221A Baker Street, London is a real house, therefore Sherlock Holmes was a real person...right?

Quote:
There have been references to Pilate that have been discovered, the Roman governor who sent Jesus to the cross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
Here is from a secular source regarding Pontus Pilate, and before the discovery prior to 1961 there were no records of him outside the Bible. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...e-1084786.html

On the stone it states:

[DIS AUGUSTI]S TIBERIÉUM
[...PONTI]US PILATUS
[...PRAEF]ECTUS IUDA[EA]E
[...FECIT D]E[DICAVIT]
The translation from Latin to English for the inscription reads:

To the Divine Augusti Tiberieum
...Pontius Pilate
...prefect of Judea
...has dedicated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone

Another source of places mentioned in the Bible have been discovered https://www.bethinking.org/is-the-bi...-new-testament

Even if you do not believe in Jesus, there is plenty of secular sources of places and records people from the New Testament that have been discovered.
..and your point is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
Well, people that believe in Jesus don't need to have physical proof of his existence, it comes from faith. Either you believe in him and see him as the son of God or you see him if he existed as a liar.
...or you see him as not existing at all; or you see him as historical but nothing like the Gospels described.

Quote:
There are many unexplained mysteries of the world, and so far no one has proven the existence there is no God, but in the meantime, no one today has ever proven the existence of God, or if there is life after death.
What does that tell you?
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Old 01-24-2019, 03:32 AM
 
38,167 posts, read 25,758,755 times
Reputation: 5910
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
You are not familiar with Homer's Iliad?
Do you claim to know why the poem was written and what its relationship to the Trojan war actually was????
Quote:
You have no way of substantiating your assertions. The fact is, no secular scribe and the Romans had a LOT of scribes, documented all those phantasmagorical happenings. No reports, by anyone outside of the bible wrote about all those zombies wandering around. No one. Not concurrently, not 30 years later, not ever. That even was more miraculous than anything that Jesus was said to have done.
You continue to pretend that the writings in the Bible are somehow NOT secular or relevant as if their use in religion invalidates them. The fantastic or miraculous or phantasmagoric content has no bearing whatsoever on their secular bona fides.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:06 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,283 posts, read 591,044 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
The Babylonian Talmud had been censored for around 800 years by the Catholic church due to the references to Jesus and it also was written before Jesus birth until 500 AD, however, there have been discoveries of the uncensored version of the Babylonian Talmud it can be deeply offensive to Christians.
Sanhedrin 43a, which in the Babylonian Talmud reads as follows:

'It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for forty days (saying): "He is going to be stoned because he practised sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf." But, not having found anything in his favour, they hanged him on the eve of Passover.'
http://legacy.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tynd...one_Brewer.pdf


It not a secular source but it from Jewish religious scholar that saw Yeshu followers as a threat for turning the Jews against their religion. Yeshu is a name similar to the name of Jesus in Hebrew.
The Talmud also says Jesus died at least 70 years before the gospels say he was born, that he was held in prison for a month (along with his FIVE disciples) and that he was stoned to death in Lydda (almost 40 Kilometers from Jerusalem).
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,283 posts, read 591,044 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You just don't get it. As far as we are concerned all the ancient writings from that era were secular because fiction was simply NOT a common occurrence. Also, the preservation of manuscripts was not common either as the fate of the library at Alexandria attests. The writings may have been in what is considered mythical form or narrative story-telling form and filled with hyperbole and figurative language. But they were always about something important because writing was a tedious thing reserved for important purposes. (BTW, forget about accusing them of being fiction because that category is a relatively modern phenomenon in geologic terms. Few would have wasted their time on such meaningless writing let alone preserving them).
Once again you need to invent 'facts' that ignore the actual evidence.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,283 posts, read 591,044 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
Every major city listed in the Gospels and Acts, for example, has been located and excavated! There have been references to Pilate that have been discovered, the Roman governor who sent Jesus to the cross.
Fiction based on actual places and people is still fiction. The fact that Justin Martyr does not appear to know Acts, and it's reliance on Josephus indicates Acts (and therefore Luke) is a mid 2nd century AD invention.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:11 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,283 posts, read 591,044 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by herenow1 View Post
Here is from a secular source regarding Pontus Pilate, and before the discovery prior to 1961 there were no records of him outside the Bible. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...e-1084786.html

On the stone it states:

[DIS AUGUSTI]S TIBERIÉUM
[...PONTI]US PILATUS
[...PRAEF]ECTUS IUDA[EA]E
[...FECIT D]E[DICAVIT]
The translation from Latin to English for the inscription reads:

To the Divine Augusti Tiberieum
...Pontius Pilate
...prefect of Judea
...has dedicated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone

Another source of places mentioned in the Bible have been discovered https://www.bethinking.org/is-the-bi...-new-testament

Even if you do not believe in Jesus, there is plenty of secular sources of places and records people from the New Testament that have been discovered.
Have you read War and Peace by Tolstoy?
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,283 posts, read 591,044 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
You are not familiar with Homer's Iliad?
Ha, the shores of sandy Pylos. I wanted to visit when we returned my Grandfather to his home land, but it was a chance to see the rest of my family.

But yes, another example of fiction based on actual places.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:45 AM
 
201 posts, read 65,815 times
Reputation: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
It also says that Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman soldier, was conceived during menstruation and burnt his food. Do you believe what the Talmud says about him? If no, why do you believe that it is evidence for Jesus?

So? 221A Baker Street, London is a real house, therefore Sherlock Holmes was a real person...right?



..and your point is?

...or you see him as not existing at all; or you see him as historical but nothing like the Gospels described.

What does that tell you?
I was answering the OP on non-Christian references to Jesus that have been supposed to be recorded since Jesus was on Earth. The Talmud was communicated orally during Jesus time and was written down a few centuries later after Jesus time on Earth. I do not agree with the Talmud, even though they did not deny the existence of Jesus. Jesus during his time on Earth biggest criticisms was to the Pharisees (Jewish religious Priests) of the day. So what was written in the Talmud was the Pharisees strived to discredit him and a reason why they did this was they feared the Jews en masse would turn their back on Judaism in order to follow Jesus instead.
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