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Old 07-26-2018, 12:19 PM
 
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I have sought in vain a secular historian besides Josephus (who supposedly wrote a very controversial passage that mentions Jesus in 94 CE. Many historians believe it to be a complete interpolation made by a 4th century scholar named Eusebius who was a lackey for the emperor Constantine. Lacking any historical for Jesus Christ Eusebius inserted this passage into the Testimonium Flavianum around 325 CE to try to give Jesus legitimacy):

Quote:
Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."
The Josephus Testimonium: Letís Just Admit Itís Fake Already

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7437

Writers earlier than Eusebius do not cite the passage; Origen states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

So besides this pseudo-mention of Jesus can anyone name me a single secular historian from the 1st century (even better, within 100 years of Jesus' crucifixion) who mentions specifically the name, "Jesus"?

I'd truly like to know. I've searched and only found ambiguous references to "wise king" or "wise man", nothing specific.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:03 PM
 
10,191 posts, read 10,558,743 times
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Nobody was able to name a single historian. Let's access what we have here:

Approximately 2.5 BILLION individuals in the world base their faith, often their entire lives philosophy of living upon an individual for whom history does NOT provide the slightest bit of historical evidence he ever existed!!

Christians are nonchalant about this. It doesn't even faze them. I find that even more astonishing!
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:31 PM
 
4,077 posts, read 1,459,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Nobody was able to name a single historian. Let's access what we have here:

Approximately 2.5 BILLION individuals in the world base their faith, often their entire lives philosophy of living upon an individual for whom history does NOT provide the slightest bit of historical evidence he ever existed!!

Christians are nonchalant about this. It doesn't even faze them. I find that even more astonishing!

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul= eyewitnesses.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:39 PM
 
8,643 posts, read 11,898,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul= eyewitnesses.
I don't think that even Christians believe that.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:42 PM
 
111 posts, read 20,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Nobody was able to name a single historian. Let's access what we have here:

Approximately 2.5 BILLION individuals in the world base their faith, often their entire lives philosophy of living upon an individual for whom history does NOT provide the slightest bit of historical evidence he ever existed!!

Christians are nonchalant about this. It doesn't even faze them. I find that even more astonishing!

I don't believe it is nonchalance. I believe it is simple recognition that the "Jesus Never Existed" ("Jesus Myth") argument is a fringe argument that is not worth wasting time on.

Bart Ehrman, the atheists' favorite Bible scholar and certainly no friend of Christianity, recognizes that the Jesus Myth argument is a fringe argument that merits no serious attention. See his 2012 book, DID JESUS EXIST? THE HISTORICAL ARGUMENT FOR JESUS OF NAZARETH.

This short clip makes clear Ehrman's disdain for the Jesus Myth argument:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43mDuIN5-ww

Essentially all serious scholars, Christian and secular, accept the existence of Jesus as having been established beyond any reasonable doubt. The historical evidence for Jesus is far more extensive and contemporary than the historical evidence for many other ancient figures whose existence is never doubted.

The pied piper of the fringe is, of course, Robert M. Price, who has made almost a cottage industry out of promoting the Jesus Myth argument. There is, of course, an audience for his work, but that audience does not include the 2.5 billion Christians or mainstream secular scholars. When he is required to interact with serious scholars, he does not fare well. See his contribution to THE HISTORICAL JESUS: FIVE VIEWS.

In short, I believe Christians do not worry about the Jesus Myth argument because it simply is not worth worrying about. To quote Ehrman in the above clip, "Atheists do themselves a disservice" with the Jesus Myth argument. "If that's what you want to believe, you'll just look foolish." Bear in mind, these are the words of a first-rate scholar who is no friend of Christianity.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:52 PM
 
111 posts, read 20,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
I don't think that even Christians believe that.
Oh, but indeed they do. They may quibble over whether the Gospels and some of letters attributed to Paul were actually written by the purported authors, but they do not doubt that the Gospels are rooted in eyewitness testimony. See JESUS AND THE EYEWITNESSES: THE GOSPELS AS EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY by noted scholar Richard Bauckham. The distinguishing feature of the so-called Third Quest of the Historical Jesus (which refers to the latest scholarly attempt to get as close as possible to the Jesus of history) is the recognition of the value of the Gospels and Paul's early letters (which considerably predate the Gospels) as historical records.
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:32 PM
 
10,191 posts, read 10,558,743 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
I don't believe it is nonchalance. I believe it is simple recognition that the "Jesus Never Existed" ("Jesus Myth") argument is a fringe argument that is not worth wasting time on.

Bart Ehrman, the atheists' favorite Bible scholar and certainly no friend of Christianity, recognizes that the Jesus Myth argument is a fringe argument that merits no serious attention. See his 2012 book, DID JESUS EXIST? THE HISTORICAL ARGUMENT FOR JESUS OF NAZARETH.

This short clip makes clear Ehrman's disdain for the Jesus Myth argument:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43mDuIN5-ww

Essentially all serious scholars, Christian and secular, accept the existence of Jesus as having been established beyond any reasonable doubt. The historical evidence for Jesus is far more extensive and contemporary than the historical evidence for many other ancient figures whose existence is never doubted.

The pied piper of the fringe is, of course, Robert M. Price, who has made almost a cottage industry out of promoting the Jesus Myth argument. There is, of course, an audience for his work, but that audience does not include the 2.5 billion Christians or mainstream secular scholars. When he is required to interact with serious scholars, he does not fare well. See his contribution to THE HISTORICAL JESUS: FIVE VIEWS.

In short, I believe Christians do not worry about the Jesus Myth argument because it simply is not worth worrying about. To quote Ehrman in the above clip, "Atheists do themselves a disservice" with the Jesus Myth argument. "If that's what you want to believe, you'll just look foolish." Bear in mind, these are the words of a first-rate scholar who is no friend of Christianity.
I enjoy your input, Nerf, I hope you stick around.

I'm not questioning if a Jesus existed or not. I'm question if there is sufficient evidence in the historic record outside the Bible to justify belief in a Son of God coming to earth, being born of a virgin, working miracles, darkness, a great earthquake, zombies rising out of their graves and walking around, Son of God resurrecting from the dead and ascending into the skies--I'm questioning if there is enough evidence outside the Bible to believe in all this.

What would you say, Nerf? Based on the secular historic record from the 1st century is there enough evidence for you to believe that? If you do, upon what part of the secular record do you derive your belief. Otherwise you have to say "I take the Bible, an extremely flawed document full of errors, contradictions, inaccuracies, and exaggerations, as my only source of belief in Jesus." Would that be accurate?
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,717 posts, read 1,265,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Nobody was able to name a single historian. Let's access what we have here:

Approximately 2.5 BILLION individuals in the world base their faith, often their entire lives philosophy of living upon an individual for whom history does NOT provide the slightest bit of historical evidence he ever existed!!

Christians are nonchalant about this. It doesn't even faze them. I find that even more astonishing!
Maybe its because they see your fallacy from silence.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:02 PM
 
10,191 posts, read 10,558,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
Maybe its because they see your fallacy from silence.
Whatever that means.......
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:17 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,517 posts, read 2,599,362 times
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I for one am not claiming that Jesus never existed, I am trying to find out whether or not this man actually did exist. A real man can quite easily become a legend but so can a nonexistent man. To me it seems somewhat doubtful but then again he might well have been a rebel rabbi who got himself crucified.

What does not help the case for the real Jesus is the myth surrounding his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven but the myth does not rule out the real man.

So, someone please, provide some convincing evidence (like a 1st century secular historian).
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