The dynamics of belief and unbelief (beliefs, service, heaven, behavior)
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Your posts strike me as coming from a pompous windbag. When the verbiage is dissected, there is no there, there. You're a hollow man. Hollow men run away and you're preparing your retreat by denigrating your audience.
It's you that is not worthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
Apparently spell check changed what I thought I wrote, detailed into emailed. You are free to jump on me for not catching that error.
You mentioned friends who were shallow hence I mentioned that neither you nor those you called shallow would know until they die, if at all. And I was mentioning you think you are superior because of your claim of extensive research. As far as being disappointed in our responses, considering you started with loaded language, strawman and cartoonist portrayal of those who are not as "deep" as yourself I question why you would even expect a higher level of discourse. Plus you missed my points entirely. And who are the new atheist teeny bopper you mentioned? This is just one example of the degradation of others by yourself. I never even claimed you are wrong and I am right so another false claim on your part. I said I was interested in being honest not what was the truth. That means that I honestly do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to form a belief in a God. I never said that there was no God. But there is sufficient parts of the Bible to know that if there was a God, he didn't inspire the writing of it.
I do not think you are genuinely seeking an intelligence discussion of beliefs and non beliefs based on your loaded language and failure to respond to what other posters stated. I am neither angry nor insecure. I have lived as a non believer for 50 or 60 years or more if you count childhood so up to 67 years and have nothing to be angry about. What I am is disappointed in that someone comes here and claims he wants to have an intelligent dialogue but starts with so many put downs and strawman claims that his post, at least to myself, are impediments to having an open and honest discussion. On these forums it is people's honest thoughts and beliefs, not if they are for or against how I think that I find both intestine and important.
Though different posting styles, both are well-stated.
Your posts strike me as coming from a pompous windbag. When the verbiage is dissected, there is no there, there. You're a hollow man. Hollow men run away and you're preparing your retreat by denigrating your audience.
It's you that is not worthy.
You seem to specialize in these sorts of snide one-liners that simply don't bear any relation to anything actually going on. It would be like me responding to every atheist post with "Just another atheist dumbass who's destined for hell."
If my posts strike you as those of a pompous windbag, ignore them! if they strike you as lacking in substance, don't read them! If you think I'm a hollow man and unworthy to boot, move on! Some of my posts may be lengthy, but I'm pretty confident they don't strike most people as those of a hollow pompous unworthy windbag. If they do, then I say the same thing to them: Ignore them, don't read them, move on!
I've literally not seen one post of yours that has any actual substance whatsoever. If you fancy yourself as some sort of court jester, this is certainly your prerogative, but I don't see that you've advanced a single thread on which I've seen you participate. (You strike me as an extremely bitter and angry court jester, but perhaps this is how you conceive your role.) One could easily conclude that you have nothing of substance to contribute. If you do, surprise us!
I at least have too many responsibilities and too many demands on my time to be here 14 hours a day lobbing or returning inane one-liners. To the best of my ability, I've responded in a substantive way to the substantive responses on every thread on which I've participated. If I decide my contributions serve no further purpose or that the participation is at a level that simply isn't worth my time, then obviously I reserve the right to move on. Is this "running away?" If that's your definition, then I pretty consistently run away from stupid, irritating and dangerous people in almost every area of my life.
You seem to specialize in these sorts of snide one-liners that simply don't bear any relation to anything actually going on. It would be like me responding to every atheist post with "Just another atheist dumbass who's destined for hell."
If my posts strike you as those of a pompous windbag, ignore them! if they strike you as lacking in substance, don't read them! If you think I'm a hollow man and unworthy to boot, move on! Some of my posts may be lengthy, but I'm pretty confident they don't strike most people as those of a hollow pompous unworthy windbag. If they do, then I say the same thing to them: Ignore them, don't read them, move on!
I've literally not seen one post of yours that has any actual substance whatsoever. If you fancy yourself as some sort of court jester, this is certainly your prerogative, but I don't see that you've advanced a single thread on which I've seen you participate. (You strike me as an extremely bitter and angry court jester, but perhaps this is how you conceive your role.) One could easily conclude that you have nothing of substance to contribute. If you do, surprise us!
I at least have too many responsibilities and too many demands on my time to be here 14 hours a day lobbing or returning inane one-liners. To the best of my ability, I've responded in a substantive way to the substantive responses on every thread on which I've participated. If I decide my contributions serve no further purpose or that the participation is at a level that simply isn't worth my time, then obviously I reserve the right to move on. Is this "running away?" If that's your definition, then I pretty consistently run away from stupid, irritating and dangerous people in almost every area of my life.
I'll make this my last response on this thread since it's becoming tedious for me and surely for others. As someone famously said: Sorry my posts are so long, I don't have the time to make them shorter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
You mentioned friends who were shallow hence I mentioned that neither you nor those you called shallow would know until they die, if at all. And I was mentioning you think you are superior because of your claim of extensive research.
No, I don't. Do you think that any and all belief systems are entitled to equal respect, all have equal claims to validity, all are equally reflective of a life well-led? A kid is dragged to Scientology meetings from the age of two by his domineering parents. He never knows or considers anything but Scientology. By the age of 50, he's a completely devoted 32nd-degree Scientologist. Is this a mature belief system by your definition? Or the teenybopper who watches two videos on YouTube and becomes a militant New Atheist to please her hunky boyfriend - is hers a belief system at all? Are my friends who say "Who cares about any of this stuff? I'll find out the Truth when I die" leading mature and responsible lives?
I think we CAN know the Truth, or a close approximation of it, in this lifetime. I believe that this quest and the fruits it produces in our lives are the very purpose of human existence. I believe that a mature belief system must mesh with each person's life experiences, studies and intuition. If it doesn't, then it's by definition delusional and cognitively dissonant. It isn't a matter of how much research someone does. In a particular life, experience or intuition may be dispositive. The point is that there is a PROCESS, a way of arriving at a belief system that is something more than a fragile house of cards. It requires a great deal of work and thought.
Have many sincere atheists, Muslims and even Scientologists followed such a process and arrived at a mature belief system? Could they articulate what they believe and why, as well as why they believe it more closely approximates the Truth than Christianity? Certainly. I happen to disagree, having followed my own process and arrived at my own convictions. My essential point, which you and others have COMPLETELY MISSED, is that it's arrogant and misguided to attack cartoonish, straw man versions of other belief systems just because you've arrived at different convictions. Yet this is PRECISELY what at least some respondents proceeded to do to me on this very thread, as though a belief in orthodox Christianity were proof in itself that one hadn't followed this process and one's beliefs weren't mature!
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As far as being disappointed in our responses, considering you started with loaded language, strawman and cartoonist portrayal of those who are not as "deep" as yourself I question why you would even expect a higher level of discourse. Plus you missed my points entirely. And who are the new atheist teeny bopper you mentioned? This is just one example of the degradation of others by yourself. I never even claimed you are wrong and I am right so another false claim on your part. I said I was interested in being honest not what was the truth. That means that I honestly do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to form a belief in a God. I never said that there was no God. But there is sufficient parts of the Bible to know that if there was a God, he didn't inspire the writing of it.
I do not think you are genuinely seeking an intelligence discussion of beliefs and non beliefs based on your loaded language and failure to respond to what other posters stated. I am neither angry nor insecure. I have lived as a non believer for 50 or 60 years or more if you count childhood so up to 67 years and have nothing to be angry about. What I am is disappointed in that someone comes here and claims he wants to have an intelligent dialogue but starts with so many put downs and strawman claims that his post, at least to myself, are impediments to having an open and honest discussion. On these forums it is people's honest thoughts and beliefs, not if they are for or against how I think that I find both intestine and important.
You're quite right that I don't believe many peoples' beliefs are as "deep" as my own. This is as true of the Christian community as the non-Christian community. By deep I simply mean well-founded. Any Christian's beliefs may be as TRUE (or untrue, as the case may be) as my own, but in many cases this is pure coincidence. A large percentage of all people are either indoctrinated into particular belief systems or fall into them for cultural, social or economic reasons having little or nothing to do with whether they correspond to Truth. These people couldn't begin to tell you why they believe what they claim to believe or why or how they think it's a better approximation of the Truth than other belief systems. This is why the research of Fowler and others indicates that most people stagnate at one of the comparatively shallow stages of belief (or unbelief, as the case may be).
My original post made the following points:
1. There is a process for arriving at a mature system of belief, be it theistic or atheistic. It requires serious work and deep thought, a diligent quest to get as close to ultimate Truth as one can get in this lifetime. Each person's path will be unique, but the process has general elements such as study, experience, reflection and intuition.
2. Many (surely most) people fall into their adopted belief systems for reasons having little or nothing to do with ultimate Truth. These reasons may be parental, cultural, social or psychological. These people couldn't tell you why they believe what they claim to believe or why they think it more closely approximates the Truth than other belief systems (of which they typically know little or nothing).
3. A belief system such as described in #2 above is really no belief system at all. It's a very fragile house of cards. A mature belief system, in contrast, guides one's life here on earth and will sustain one in the face of life's challenges including death.
4. It's arrogant and misguided to assume that someone else's belief system isn't mature just because it includes beliefs that you reject or even regard as absurd. I explained by way of example the long process I have followed. Some people hold Christian beliefs that are of the mature sort described in #1 above, others are at the level of #2. Ditto for atheists.
5. At least insofar as Christianity is concerned, I consistently see an assumption that all Christians are at the level of #2. This results in discussions that are tedious, boring and non-substantive. The same would be true if I insisted on engaging all atheists at this superficial, cartoonish level. If an atheist's belief system were a mature one, I'd expect to see more substantive comments than I typically see here.
6. I made the final observation, somewhat tangential to the above points, that many of the heated discussions on here strike me as being more about conflicting lifestyles than about the Truth of the competing belief systems. When the discussions are viewed from this perspective, they make more sense.
I really didn't picture my original post as something that should stir up a hornet's nest. if some people found it useful in framing their thinking about what they believe and why, great. The fact that it did stir up a hornet's nest, and specifically was taken as some sort of Christian proselytizing, is both depressing and unfortunately all too typical.
I'll make this my last response on this thread since it's becoming tedious for me and surely for others. As someone famously said: Sorry my posts are so long, I don't have the time to make them shorter.
No, I don't. Do you think that any and all belief systems are entitled to equal respect, all have equal claims to validity, all are equally reflective of a life well-led? A kid is dragged to Scientology meetings from the age of two by his domineering parents. He never knows or considers anything but Scientology. By the age of 50, he's a completely devoted 32nd-degree Scientologist. Is this a mature belief system by your definition? Or the teenybopper who watches two videos on YouTube and becomes a militant New Atheist to please her hunky boyfriend - is hers a belief system at all? Are my friends who say "Who cares about any of this stuff? I'll find out the Truth when I die" leading mature and responsible lives?
I think we CAN know the Truth, or a close approximation of it, in this lifetime. I believe that this quest and the fruits it produces in our lives are the very purpose of human existence. I believe that a mature belief system must mesh with each person's life experiences, studies and intuition. If it doesn't, then it's by definition delusional and cognitively dissonant. It isn't a matter of how much research someone does. In a particular life, experience or intuition may be dispositive. The point is that there is a PROCESS, a way of arriving at a belief system that is something more than a fragile house of cards. It requires a great deal of work and thought.
Have many sincere atheists, Muslims and even Scientologists followed such a process and arrived at a mature belief system? Could they articulate what they believe and why, as well as why they believe it more closely approximates the Truth than Christianity? Certainly. I happen to disagree, having followed my own process and arrived at my own convictions. My essential point, which you and others have COMPLETELY MISSED, is that it's arrogant and misguided to attack cartoonish, straw man versions of other belief systems just because you've arrived at different convictions. Yet this is PRECISELY what at least some respondents proceeded to do to me on this very thread, as though a belief in orthodox Christianity were proof in itself that one hadn't followed this process and one's beliefs weren't mature!
You're quite right that I don't believe many peoples' beliefs are as "deep" as my own. This is as true of the Christian community as the non-Christian community. By deep I simply mean well-founded. Any Christian's beliefs may be as TRUE (or untrue, as the case may be) as my own, but in many cases this is pure coincidence. A large percentage of all people are either indoctrinated into particular belief systems or fall into them for cultural, social or economic reasons having little or nothing to do with whether they correspond to Truth. These people couldn't begin to tell you why they believe what they claim to believe or why or how they think it's a better approximation of the Truth than other belief systems. This is why the research of Fowler and others indicates that most people stagnate at one of the comparatively shallow stages of belief (or unbelief, as the case may be).
My original post made the following points:
1. There is a process for arriving at a mature system of belief, be it theistic or atheistic. It requires serious work and deep thought, a diligent quest to get as close to ultimate Truth as one can get in this lifetime. Each person's path will be unique, but the process has general elements such as study, experience, reflection and intuition.
2. Many (surely most) people fall into their adopted belief systems for reasons having little or nothing to do with ultimate Truth. These reasons may be parental, cultural, social or psychological. These people couldn't tell you why they believe what they claim to believe or why they think it more closely approximates the Truth than other belief systems (of which they typically know little or nothing).
3. A belief system such as described in #2 above is really no belief system at all. It's a very fragile house of cards. A mature belief system, in contrast, guides one's life here on earth and will sustain one in the face of life's challenges including death.
4. It's arrogant and misguided to assume that someone else's belief system isn't mature just because it includes beliefs that you reject or even regard as absurd. I explained by way of example the long process I have followed. Some people hold Christian beliefs that are of the mature sort described in #1 above, others are at the level of #2. Ditto for atheists.
5. At least insofar as Christianity is concerned, I consistently see an assumption that all Christians are at the level of #2. This results in discussions that are tedious, boring and non-substantive. The same would be true if I insisted on engaging all atheists at this superficial, cartoonish level. If an atheist's belief system were a mature one, I'd expect to see more substantive comments than I typically see here.
6. I made the final observation, somewhat tangential to the above points, that many of the heated discussions on here strike me as being more about conflicting lifestyles than about the Truth of the competing belief systems. When the discussions are viewed from this perspective, they make more sense.
I really didn't picture my original post as something that should stir up a hornet's nest. if some people found it useful in framing their thinking about what they believe and why, great. The fact that it did stir up a hornet's nest, and specifically was taken as some sort of Christian proselytizing, is both depressing and unfortunately all too typical.
Wow, once again you managed to misinterprete my posts and what I was saying. You keep droning on with this atheist versus Christian or other believer stuff and at no time have I ever stated that my non belief is correct or true and a belief in a God is not.
You were the one, and maybe the only poster ever on this forum, to mention mature and immature beliefs. I never tackled your points 3 to 6 but do agree with your point 2 to perhaps a lesser degree. That you view Point 1 so ultimately important and show so much distain for those who have a lesser degree of enthusiasm for it has all I have been responding to. And you use such cartoonish examples and strawman arguments actually stifles real discussion and results in the type of responses you are disappointed with.
As I stated before I think you are more wanting to show that you are superior to everyone else here, theists and non theists alike, then an honest discussion on how any of us came about our belief or lack of belief system.
Maybe if you had stated how you came about believing what you did and asked for others to do the same you would have gotten better responses however starting off with a loaded OP does not do that. Maybe your inability to comprehend that is more typical of you than of us?
You were the one, and maybe the only poster ever on this forum, to mention mature and immature beliefs.
Good. That was one of my objectives.
Quote:
That you view Point 1 so ultimately important and show so much distain for those who have a lesser degree of enthusiasm for it has all I have been responding to.
I do regard it as ultimately important. That was one of my main points. I don't have disdain for anyone who disagrees with my understanding of the PROCESS. If someone wants to say "No, I think a mature belief system is developed more like this," I'm all ears.
To some extent, I do have disdain for those who go through life with a supposed belief system that they've never really considered and couldn't defend if their lives depended on it. My point was to simply to encourage people to think about the process by which they might arrive at a mature belief system, whatever it might be.
It seems to me that you somehow think I'm promoting Christianity as a mature belief system vis-Ã -vis immature ones like atheism. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I think I've made this abundantly clear.
Quote:
And you use such cartoonish examples and strawman arguments actually stifles real discussion and results in the type of responses you are disappointed with.
And what were those cartoonish examples and strawman arguments? I said at the beginning of my post "I’m talking about mature belief and unbelief, not the teenager who jumps on the New Atheist bandwagon to please her boyfriend or the Baptist who has attended the church since the age of three but has never really given a thought to what he believes or why." Do those strike you as unfair, inflammatory or cartoonish? Those are very much real-world examples. I picked a Christian one and an atheist one just to make clear that I was talking about all species of mindless belief.
Quote:
Maybe if you had stated how you came about believing what you did and asked for others to do the same you would have gotten better responses however starting off with a loaded OP does not do that. Maybe your inability to comprehend that is more typical of you than of us?
I don't think so. I'd encourage you to re-read my original post, because I believe you've grossly mischaracterized it. It appears to me that you, like many here, have such a visceral reaction to anything Christian that reading comprehension falls by the wayside. Describing how I came to believe what I do is PRECISELY what I did in considerable depth. If you missed this, I give up.
Please understand, I DON'T REALLY CARE how anyone else came to believe what they did. Comparing belief systems wasn't the point of my post. My point was first to encourage those whose belief systems are less than mature to give some thought to how they came to believe and why (and second to point out that belief systems with which they strongly disagree, such as Christianity, may nevertheless be fully mature, defensible ones and not the irrational silliness so frequently ridiculed here). I used myself as an EXAMPLE only because my process is the one I know best. And you folks can't stand it BECAUSE I'M A CHRISTIAN.
If I'd posted THE EXACT SAME THING, with all examples reversed and describing how I arrived at a belief in the Truth of atheism, you'd be wetting your knickers in ecstasy. And missing the point just as completely.
... If someone wants to say "No, I think a mature belief system is developed more like this," I'm all ears.....
OK here goes
i think a mature belief system is one that recognizes everyone has access to the Creator, regardless of the path or religion a person takes.
i think if a belief system insists there is only "one" way to get to God, a "right" way to get to God or "best" way or "superior" way, and all other paths are wrong, inferior, mistaken, that is not a mature belief system.
i think a mature belief system is one that does not proselytize. because a mature belief system respects that every person has the capacity and capability to choose for their own self what works for them in their life.
i think a mature belief system does not insult or talk down to others, or try to tell you why their way is better or smarter and if you follow a different path you are irrational, stupid, gullible, ignorant, not intellectual, mistaken, or going to hell.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-22-2018 at 02:28 PM..
I do regard it as ultimately important. That was one of my main points. I don't have disdain for anyone who disagrees with my understanding of the PROCESS. If someone wants to say "No, I think a mature belief system is developed more like this," I'm all ears.
To some extent, I do have disdain for those who go through life with a supposed belief system that they've never really considered and couldn't defend if their lives depended on it. My point was to simply to encourage people to think about the process by which they might arrive at a mature belief system, whatever it might be.
It seems to me that you somehow think I'm promoting Christianity as a mature belief system vis-Ã -vis immature ones like atheism. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I think I've made this abundantly clear.
And what were those cartoonish examples and strawman arguments? I said at the beginning of my post "I’m talking about mature belief and unbelief, not the teenager who jumps on the New Atheist bandwagon to please her boyfriend or the Baptist who has attended the church since the age of three but has never really given a thought to what he believes or why." Do those strike you as unfair, inflammatory or cartoonish? Those are very much real-world examples. I picked a Christian one and an atheist one just to make clear that I was talking about all species of mindless belief.
I don't think so. I'd encourage you to re-read my original post, because I believe you've grossly mischaracterized it. It appears to me that you, like many here, have such a visceral reaction to anything Christian that reading comprehension falls by the wayside. Describing how I came to believe what I do is PRECISELY what I did in considerable depth. If you missed this, I give up.
Please understand, I DON'T REALLY CARE how anyone else came to believe what they did. Comparing belief systems wasn't the point of my post. My point was first to encourage those whose belief systems are less than mature to give some thought to how they came to believe and why (and second to point out that belief systems with which they strongly disagree, such as Christianity, may nevertheless be fully mature, defensible ones and not the irrational silliness so frequently ridiculed here). I used myself as an EXAMPLE only because my process is the one I know best. And you folks can't stand it BECAUSE I'M A CHRISTIAN.
If I'd posted THE EXACT SAME THING, with all examples reversed and describing how I arrived at a belief in the Truth of atheism, you'd be wetting your knickers in ecstasy. And missing the point just as completely.
Done, I promise.
I have to get in the last word. 😀
I don't get how you keep making it a theist versus atheist debate. I am replying as a person and I think my response would have been the same if I was Jewish, Muslum, Christian or any other belief. I cannot fathom how a supposedly intelligent person like yourself keeps making the same error. And no I wouldn't be wetting my knickers if your conclusion made you an atheist, I would be thinking that this was a post by an atheist insulting everyone else because we are not as deep as he.
I will try once more, it is not what your conclusion ended up with, nor even that you claimed that you fully studied to come up with that conclusion. It matters not if I agree with your belief or not, you are still someone who wants an intelligent discussion but starts with belittling the vast majority of people, theists and atheists alike and then expecting something from them. Actually I think you probably insulted believers more than non believers.
It doesn't bother me that you are a Christian, many of the best people on these forums are and a few of the most unpleasant are not. If you posted without the insults, the implication that others are wrong and without your arrogance the reply would have been completely different but rather than address any of that you hide behind an excuse.
Here, for those whose copy of 100 COMMON LOGICAL FALLACIES may have been misplaced, is an actual example of an ad hominem attack. An online guide defines an ad hominem attack as "Attacking the people who make an argument rather than discussing the argument itself. This practice is fallacious because the personal character of an individual is logically irrelevant to the truth or falseness of the argument itself." https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/document...acies_List.pdf.
Ad hominem attacks have also been characterized as "the last resort of people who have no answers" and "the last resort of thoughtless people who, instead of arguing their points with class and precision, choose to attack the character of their opponent." .: Ad Hominem Attacks: The Refuge of the Thoughtless.
We actually have two posts in this vein, which collectively refer to me as a pompous windbag (twice), a hollow man and unworthy (of what I'm not exactly sure). All without addressing any of the substance of my posts. These are the starkest sorts of examples of the ad hominem fallacy.
To point out that someone has no academic credentials in a particular field, or has never been published in a scholarly journal about the subject being discussed, isn't an ad hominem attack. It's a statement of relevant fact. Although I teach mathematics at the high school level, there are areas of higher math in which I have utterly no expertise. This would be relevant if I were attempting to strut my stuff in one of those areas.
The occasional witty ad hominem should roll off anyone's back. ("Pompous windbag" has kind of a 1950's feel to it, and I'd hope for something more amusing from a court jester.) When one deals solely in ad hominem attacks, however … well, you can draw your own conclusions.
I note on the Religion Posting Guidelines statements such as "Rudeness in posts will absolutely not be tolerated, and hence forth will result in infractions" and "From this date forward, ongoing rude or sarcastic posts will be infracted." We find in the General Rules the requirement to "Be civil, no personal attacks, flaming, or insults."
Perhaps these are rules that are honored in the breach, the moderators have simply thrown in the towel, or there's a court jester exception that I overlooked.
In any event, now your understanding of the ad hominem fallacy has been refreshed.
OK here goes
i think a mature belief system is one that recognizes everyone has access to the Creator, regardless of the path or religion a person takes.
i think if a belief system insists there is only "one" way to get to God, a "right" way to get to God or "best" way or "superior" way, and all other paths are wrong, inferior, mistaken, that is not a mature belief system.
i think a mature belief system is one that does not proselytize. because a mature belief system respects that every person has the capacity and capability to choose for their own self what works for them in their life.
i think a mature belief system does not insult or talk down to others, or try to tell you why their way is better or smarter and if you follow a different path you are irrational, stupid, gullible, ignorant, not intellectual, mistaken, or going to hell.
Well, OK, I appreciate the effort, but you really aren't dealing with the PROCESS. You're defining maturity in terms of the CONTENT of the belief system and the CONDUCT of the believer. Your definition of a mature belief system seems pretty carefully crafted to eliminate orthodox Christianity, although it would eliminate many other belief systems as well. The PROCESS I'm talking about wouldn't disqualify any belief system from being a mature one on the basis of content. That's what I would've been doing if I'd said, "For starters, surely we can all agree that atheism can never be a mature belief system."
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