Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Does anyone else think that religious belief is another way of conforming to the traditional beliefs of the culture?
Possibly in a small way. The root of religious belief is far more complex, and people do take on the religion of their culture. But if I understand, you are asking if it goes the other way. Do people use their beliefs to strengthen their traditional and cultural identity? I think this is natural, it is not a large reason for belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
Does anyone here who used to be more religious also correspond your turning away from the faith as a way of "rebelling" against traditions?
No, I still celebrate Christian festivals as part of my culture, even though I do not believe. I also celebrate other religious events with my friends who follow other religions.
I did not rebel even as a teenager, but that may be because I come from two cultures, German and Greek. Three if you include my Grandfathers none city values and my Mothers more cultural Greek. I am already seen as somehow different to other people.
My journey to atheism was not a rebellion. I simply stopped believing.
I was never raised in a religious culture and certainly not a Jewish one. I never did believe however I grew up not even thinking about a God. But I have observed the same family producing children that some followed their parents, some became non believers and one a very devout fundamentalist of a different denomination.
I don't think you can discount the individuals own personal experiences, their friends and associates, those they have dated or married as greater influences than a simple rebellion.
Things my father either was against or hated that I do or have done is owned cats and dogs, rode bikes and camped in tents. I did those because I enjoy them and I have lived in a culture where saying that I don't believe in God would raise less of emotion than stating that I don't eat meat (but I do eat meat).
It could also be that being religious or a non believer is more a reflection of the culture you live in than a rebellion towards that culture. Compare the religiosity of young Americans to young European or Japanese and see if it a continuation or a rebellion. In the Middle East the dive into fundamentalism appears to be culturally driven and during my adult life however the onus might have been economically or political I am not sure.
Does anyone else think that religious belief is another way of conforming to the traditional beliefs of the culture?
In other words, how you feel about conforming to this set of standards and beliefs, determines your level of religious belief, or your atheism. As soon as one starts to question certain attitudes and standards, does a person also begin to question his "God" at the same time? This questioning actually comes first while he is still a believer, then the religious questioning immediately follows.
Does anyone here who used to be more religious also correspond your turning away from the faith as a way of "rebelling" against traditions?
There was a time when religious explanations seemed to be the only explanation for existence. And so, when one's parents gave them their traditional superstitious religious explanations, most people simply bought into whatever they were told. And perpetuated the religious myths from generation to generation. Science has pretty well eroded supernatural explanations away over the last century, however. The existence of the universe can be pretty well be explained as naturally occurring.
Fifty years ago when I first realized that Christian claims were far too silly to be sustainable, I did not yet have a full understanding of the scientific explanation for the existence of the universe, but I was aware that there was such an explanation. I wasn't rebelling against Christianity so much as I was rejecting it for being too unrealistic to be true. And I was beginning a journey to find a more realistic explanation for my existence. I did not then, nor do I now, have an emotional attachment to any religious explanation. Many people DO have an abiding emotional need to believe in their religious explanations however, because their religious beliefs promise them that they are special in this vast universe, and that there is more meaning to life than simply existing. By comparison the scientific explanation is sterile and fills no such emotional need. Science is not intended to offer emotional succor. Science is simple observation. If existence is simply a naturally occurring process, as it is now observed to be, then no one was ever offered any special fulfillment for their emotional needs to begin with. I am afraid it's time for people to grow up, at long last. But many prefer their myths.
The question or 'argument' for 'meaning in life' is one of the better or trickier arguments fielded by religious apologists. I now firmly believe that it is far, far, better to accept that there is no plan for us, other than environment (or rather changes in environment) acting on bioforms. It is far, far, far better to realise that the meaning we devise for ourselves are far, far, far better than some imposed diving plan. And it is far, far, far, far better to understand what these meaning we devise are, where they come from and why they have meaning for us.
And it is far, far, far, far better to accept that we cannot explain all of that that just make up a Divine Plan, and not only because it almost inevitably nullifies all the stuff that gives our lives meaning as trash, sinful, distractions and against the will of Go and tends to give people other and better things to think about and do.
Does anyone else think that religious belief is another way of conforming to the traditional beliefs of the culture?
In other words, how you feel about conforming to this set of standards and beliefs, determines your level of religious belief, or your atheism. As soon as one starts to question certain attitudes and standards, does a person also begin to question his "God" at the same time? This questioning actually comes first while he is still a believer, then the religious questioning immediately follows.
Does anyone here who used to be more religious also correspond your turning away from the faith as a way of "rebelling" against traditions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
And I could understand how, in the olden days a family of farmers or shephers/ranchers going back for generations would tend to pass down their religious beliefs. Things didn't really change that much from generation to generation back then.
Hmm, this is an interesting question...
My sort answer is that I don't think that religious belief follows from some sense of conformance to social norms within a culture.
My long answer is, well, long... Its complicated. I think first you have to drill down to a much lower level than most of of think of culture as being. What I mean by this is that every religious community has its of distinctive culture. You can't really think of some monolithic, and quite frankly mythical "Western Christian" culture that lots of cultural supremacists like to reference. The Southern Baptist Church I grew up in had a different set of cultural norms than the Methodists down the street, or the Reformed Baptists, Assemblies of God, or any other denomination I worshiped with.
Also, in this case I think we need to clarify that this isn't simply about losing faith, but any change to one's belief. In many ways the same mechanisms that led me out of Christianity led my dad to a very different take on Christianity, but he still identifies as one. Likewise, my changes from Southern Baptist to AG, from AG to charismatic Southern Baptist and from that to Reformed Baptist all involved questioning attitudes and standards, as well as doctrine.
So I think there are a couple major mechanisms I have observed for religious change.
Religious change can happen when there is a clash of culture between your religious culture and the wider culture. This can go one of two ways, you can retreat into your religious culture, essentially doubling down on the religious belief, or you can adapt to the wider culture. In essence, this is the choice of Rumspringa, you taste the wider culture and you have to choose to abandon your own or recommit to it. I find that often what makes the difference is relationships. When faced with the culture clash, when you know liberal Christians, gay people, muslims, atheists, etc... and you can compare the narrative your religion gives you about them with the reality of human relationship, it often propels one toward the wider culture. On the other hand, if all you have are the caricatures of other groups, and little exposure or bad exposure, you may use that to justify your retreat to a specific orthodoxy.
Religious change can happen when the expectations or predictions of a doctrine or sect do not match observed reality. Again, it is an opportunity to change or double down. An example of this was my move to Reformed theology. I grew up Southern Baptist which tends to be a wishy-washy variant of Calvinism. The AG and Free Methodists were Weslyan churches I was a part of, but I was never able to square the theology with my understanding of scripture. Eventually I moved all the way to Reformed theology, which was logically consistant with my understanding of scripture, but had some very morally nasty implications. At the time, I doubled down on these. I prided myself on being able to look past the implications of a god that created billions of individuals who had no choice but to be tortured for eternity, and "leave it in God's hands" because the clay cannot question the potter.
My eventual departure from religion was a combination of these. I found that what my doctrine told me did not match my experience, and that the descriptions of the outside world morally and socially didn't appear to accurately describe the world around me. These mismatches built to a breaking point, at which time I laid it all out to God in fervent desperate prayer, and begged for his intervention. The I waited, and eventually realized it was never coming. So I set out to figure out, "Now what?" For me that lead to walking away entirely.
One aspect I didn't address is the idea of traditions. I don't think that this is really the right way to think about it. All of the religious sects I was a part of did not value tradition, at least not that they would admit. It was all degraded as papist or heathen nonsense. We did have traditions, but they were very individualistic, and not centered around social observance. The evangelical world is hyper focused on doctrine, not ritual.
Also, I think the idea that religion was handed down unchanging is not terribly accurate. I mean maybe for Christianity in middle ages, before the Bible was translated from Latin. Since then, though, I don't think the idea of unchanging tradition is borne out in history... Other faiths would show different patterns, and the evolution of sects, sub groups and syncretic mergings of faiths would show the variety and non-static nature of religion. I think that is because every believer in any faith will encounter these two mechanisms for change at some point in their lives, often repeatedly. Some resist, others change, but stasis is not an easy option.
Does anyone else think that religious belief is another way of conforming to the traditional beliefs of the culture?
In other words, how you feel about conforming to this set of standards and beliefs, determines your level of religious belief, or your atheism. As soon as one starts to question certain attitudes and standards, does a person also begin to question his "God" at the same time? This questioning actually comes first while he is still a believer, then the religious questioning immediately follows.
Does anyone here who used to be more religious also correspond your turning away from the faith as a way of "rebelling" against traditions?
Probably it’s a normal thought process for many religious people all across many faiths.
IMO, the bigger question is, when a person does not find an answer from his faith, what does he do next?
Does he honestly and sincerely try to find the answers anywhere else or he rejects his faith and jumps straight in to Atheism?
In my personal opinion, it’s quite likely that such a person may find some sort of an answer somewhere else.
Then the next step is, how brave is he, how much courage does he have and how strongly he feels about changing his faith and starts following the one that’s more clear to him and provides better guidance.
This is my personal opinion and I could be 100% wrong but I feel that the largest number of people who go thru this filtering process come from Christian faith.
It has two facets.
On one hand, whether someone agrees or denies, Christian people and the whole organization is involved in A LOT of good work that is beneficial to humanity. Charity based works, hospitals, shelters, animal rights, help
and aid in disastrous areas, feeding the hungry, interfaith dialogue, looking after neighbors etc.
This is all an EXTREMELY admirable work that I always applaud and encourage them to keep up.
Even though I am not a Christian but whenever possible, I have donated to Christian organizations who help the needy.
On the other hand, the theology itself has been evolved SUCH MORE over the last 2000 years the it doesn’t make sense to many Christians. It just doesn’t seem to be natural anymore. It’s peobably because many lies may have been added to the actual message - that seem to have been lost.
And perhaps that’s why, many Christians naturally start questioning this “evolved belief” at the very stages of their lives.
So when it comes to taking the next step, the easy way is to take the Atheism path because changing faith in many cases would mean a very strong fear of social, cultural and family disconnect. It’s a natural fear so I don’t blame them.
As someone started a thread a few months ago that read something like
“Should we call Atheism as another denomination of Christianity?”
" but I feel that the largest number of people who go thru this filtering process come from Christian faith."
What you Feel is not evidence. What is evidence is evidence. I did a bit of a dig a Looong time ago and had a look at vids more recently, (this is hardly a research study of course, but it beats your 'feelings') and it looked like the sideways converts seemed to be from the milder forms of Christianity to the stricter religions. I got the impression that they preferred to be regulated rather than reason. Otherwise the Abrahamic three seemed to swap converts between them, but none of those 'Digs' I did suggested that the Abrahamics deconverted to milder forms or to irreligion let alone atheism.
But reading deconversion stories and more recently deconversion videos, that is what does happen, but it doesn't get much publicity. Not until fairly recently, anyway.
" but I feel that the largest number of people who go thru this filtering process come from Christian faith."
What you Feel is not evidence. What is evidence is evidence. I did a bit of a dig a Looong time.
May be that’s why I stated a disclaimer that I could be 100% wrong.
There wasn’t a need to provide an evidence as it was just an opinion
Last edited by GoCardinals; 08-20-2018 at 09:15 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
