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Old 08-21-2018, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,293 posts, read 84,292,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Rebelling is perhaps not the right word. It can well be used by Religious authority to cow the Faithful into not having questions. But That's word - questioning. Questioning in the basis of science and logic. There was a thread recently on a pastor peddling the dangerous doctrine of faith -healing rather than medicine. A former theist online pal of mine said that his deconversion (really the result of a small thing releasing a torrent of walled -off Doubt) was from seeing a minister buying puggle in a drug store.
This is weird. I get that there can be a last-straw moment, but why was a drugstore selling a dog? And exactly why did that upset your pal? A minister can't have a pet?
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:08 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,813,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Of course people can. However, that is a forced, external pressure to change values. You are proposing something that makes no sense.

As I understand it, you are proposing that somebody holds a value, but doesn’t know they do. Then they are convinced through some mechanism to act contrary to their previously existing, but unknown value.

How can a value even exist if it isn’t known? are you saying that I hold conservative values, but because I don’t know I have conservative values, I act in a progressive-liberal manner because I have been brainwashed? Maybe my core value is that of a Scientologist, but since that value has been hidden from me I am really a brainwashed atheist?

Values are a product of my intellect. If I don’t know I have it, it really isn’t my value.
Then you are an exception to the "some" that I defined. I didn't say everyone was afflicted by this. But there are a lot of confused people in the world. Many people don't even know what their values are, and they often go to try to "find themselves". This can even occur later in life.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 05:11 PM
 
3,402 posts, read 2,779,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Then you are an exception to the "some" that I defined. I didn't say everyone was afflicted by this. But there are a lot of confused people in the world. Many people don't even know what their values are, and they often go to try to "find themselves". This can even occur later in life.
yeah, but that isn’t a discovery of a pre-existing core value. That is simply the process of forming your values. Everyone goes through it, and often we go through multiple times during our life. It might even be a continuous process for many of us. That doesn’t mean that somewhere hidden within us we have a set of core values that take us 30 years to discover, it just means we’ve changed our minds .

-NoCapo
 
Old 08-21-2018, 05:56 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,813,911 times
Reputation: 5434
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
yeah, but that isn’t a discovery of a pre-existing core value. That is simply the process of forming your values. Everyone goes through it, and often we go through multiple times during our life. It might even be a continuous process for many of us. That doesn’t mean that somewhere hidden within us we have a set of core values that take us 30 years to discover, it just means we’ve changed our minds .

-NoCapo
As the song goes...

"You say tomato, I say tomato,
You say potato, I say potato,
Tomato, tomato, potato, potato,
Let's call the whole thing off."

Maybe it's just a matter of perception.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 06:01 PM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,002,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
yeah, but that isn’t a discovery of a pre-existing core value. That is simply the process of forming your values. Everyone goes through it, and often we go through multiple times during our life. It might even be a continuous process for many of us. That doesn’t mean that somewhere hidden within us we have a set of core values that take us 30 years to discover, it just means we’ve changed our minds .

-NoCapo
Thank you for eloquently stating what I was thinking.

Ozzy, my values have changed and evolved as I go through life. I used to be religious, now I am an atheist. I used to be mildly homophobic, now I am pro individual rights, including LGBT.

Are you saying that my innate values were always atheistic? Or that I was brainwashed? Or that I still have religious core values but I don’t know it?

I am honestly puzzled here, not trying to make a debate point. It seems to me that you might be implying values exist as an objective thing, independent of our thoughts, desires and actions, awaiting discovery like buried treasure. Is that so?
 
Old 08-21-2018, 07:00 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,803 posts, read 6,261,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
My point is that there are probably a lot of people who are pressured (by religion) into conforming to something that goes against their core values, and they aren't even aware of it, because they have never known what their values really were.
I think I know what you mean. It's been covered by my recovery group and has to do with second generation cult members and authentic self. You haven't said you grew up in a cult but it could apply to other family situations like growing up in a highly dysfunctional environment. Any situation that requires a child to play a role or make a mask to protect themselves from adults.

This video makes some good points. It's long but much of the information is in the first gew minutes of the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLMvIoxlIC8
 
Old 08-21-2018, 07:37 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,813,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Thank you for eloquently stating what I was thinking.

Ozzy, my values have changed and evolved as I go through life. I used to be religious, now I am an atheist. I used to be mildly homophobic, now I am pro individual rights, including LGBT.

Are you saying that my innate values were always atheistic? Or that I was brainwashed? Or that I still have religious core values but I don’t know it?

I am honestly puzzled here, not trying to make a debate point. It seems to me that you might be implying values exist as an objective thing, independent of our thoughts, desires and actions, awaiting discovery like buried treasure. Is that so?
Yes.

I will say that when I was a teenager I was not conservative, homophobic, or anything of that sort. But then, as a young adult I became influenced by people who were that way as a result of attending church, to the point that I was beginning to think that way myself. It lasted a several years.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 08:11 PM
 
13,011 posts, read 13,002,641 times
Reputation: 21913
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Yes.
Thank you for directly answering my question. One of the frustrating parts of this board is when some posters refuse to take a stand on something, obscuring their thoughts and preferring verbal sparring and evasive statements rather than straightforward discussion. I credit you for not evading anything in this case.

Quote:
I will say that when I was a teenager I was not conservative, homophobic, or anything of that sort. But then, as a young adult I became influenced by people who were that way as a result of attending church, to the point that I was beginning to think that way myself. It lasted a several years.
So you started at “A”, shifted to “B”, and ultimately returned to “A”. Pretty clear. My path was different, being more of an A to B to C.

I don’t accept your premise that values are objective. I think that they are subjective, influenced by our culture, environment, parents, experiences, etc. As we go through life our thoughts, feelings and values evolve.

I accept that I don’t have any evidence for my thoughts, and I don’t see you presenting any evidence for yours. I think it suffices to acknowledge that we have different views, and that is probably as far as we can take it.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 09:45 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
This is weird. I get that there can be a last-straw moment, but why was a drugstore selling a dog? And exactly why did that upset your pal? A minister can't have a pet?
Sorry. A quirk of mine. Puggle is an old Raj word for medicines. What was the little Thing that in itself wasn't such a faith debunker but just the little thing like a koan that tilted the brain a bit and opened a crack to let all the pent -up -doubt pour in (or that's my theory) was seeing a minister but medicine rather than pray to be healed. "He didn't really believe the religion he preached".

It's a small and not even a really strong argument, but it was one that was direct and slipped through the carapace of denial before he could stop it.

The one that gets through the denial is the one both sides ever look for.
 
Old 08-21-2018, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,293 posts, read 84,292,537 times
Reputation: 114641
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Sorry. A quirk of mine. Puggle is an old Raj word for medicines. What was the little Thing that in itself wasn't such a faith debunker but just the little thing like a koan that tilted the brain a bit and opened a crack to let all the pent -up -doubt pour in (or that's my theory) was seeing a minister but medicine rather than pray to be healed. "He didn't really believe the religion he preached".

It's a small and not even a really strong argument, but it was one that was direct and slipped through the carapace of denial before he could stop it.

The one that gets through the denial is the one both sides ever look for.
Ah, thanks, I didn't know that. I thought you were referring to the Pug/Beagle mix breed that's become so popular, lol.
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