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What you see as invented, I see as validated over millennia by actual outcomes.
You may as well see Buddhism, invented out of a need to take merit- making away from the Brahmin caste so that the Kshatrya caste could rule without the Brahmins having any kind of divine Veto., as being validated because of how it turned out. As any religion could claim - if it did not go extinct and was able to prosper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
And as the Christians have been caught inventing and reinventing over and over for around 2,000 years ...
Yes, Mystic is so vague as to be evasive, too. Is he referring to the Churches? (nothing to cheer and stomp about, if you ask me) technical or social progress? No thanks to Christianity. Validation of the Bible or Jesus - story? Prophecy fulfilled? Rather it had lost ground and credibility over the years. The Meaningful Truth that Mystic alone out of the ignorant, uneducated and blind mass of humanity is able to see? Yes, I'll bet a fifty on that.
Yes, Mystic is so vague as to be evasive, too. Is he referring to the Churches? (nothing to cheer and stomp about, if you ask me) technical or social progress? No thanks to Christianity. Validation of the Bible or Jesus - story? Prophecy fulfilled? Rather it had lost ground and credibility over the years. The Meaningful Truth that Mystic alone out of the ignorant, uneducated and blind mass of humanity is able to see? Yes, I'll bet a fifty on that.
He is referring to my point about the story of Jesus being invented.
Either unclear (obtuse?) prophecy was fulfilled, or Jesus was (in part or total) invented out of the OT (and other works).
Even historians who accept a historical Jesus admit most of the story is an invention.
He is referring to my point about the story of Jesus being invented.
Either unclear (obtuse?) prophecy was fulfilled, or Jesus was (in part or total) invented out of the OT (and other works).
Even historians who accept a historical Jesus admit most of the story is an invention.
Yes, I got that, but Mystic is not unknown for skipping like a maybug over the actual point and trying to swamp the whole debate with a blanket claim that It's All true anyway, so that trumps all arguments. And it's proven All True because of the way it all turned out to be validated in some way too obvious to need exposition.
Yes, I got that, but Mystic is not unknown for skipping like a maybug over the actual point and trying to swamp the whole debate with a blanket claim that It's All true anyway, so that trumps all arguments. And it's proven All True because of the way it all turned out to be validated in some way too obvious to need exposition.
The validation that Jesus is the Messiah from God prophesied some 800 years before His birth is manifold. It may not be obvious to you, but I had little trouble seeing it. The silly and childish expectation that Thrill expresses that such ancient and primitive prophecies should be detailed and specific because they come from God is absurd. Expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species' SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But for the oblivious, I will repeat some of the salient highlights that are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophecy about the Christ. Who else can point to this kind of impact over millennia?]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophecy. Who else has become a leader of the Gentiles?]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophecy. Who else has been responsible for such an outcome?]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one. Who else has produced a similar outcome?]
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the cornerstone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly, the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone! Who else has the same history?]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so. ]
Jesus was something to be able to manipulate events and people for over 2000+ years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
That rather illustrates the point that I was making; you can rummage through the OT and find passages that seem to validate Jesus as Messiah, or as you have done, pick passages that seem to presage current events. It's the same game played with Nostradamus.
But what is more telling is the gospel prophecies which can be seen to be reverse engineered. You have Matthew's prophecy of the Massacre of innocents which is nothing to do with that, even if the events was real, which it surely isn't. You have the cobbled -together passages intended to be prophecies of Judas' death, and you have John's passage about Piercing which needs a story about stabbing with a spear. The synoptic gospels report no such thing and Luke tacitly refutes that by having Jesus show his hands and feet while John has him displaying the wound in his side as well, and moreover to Thomas on a later occasion which Luke also refutes, because he shows that the 'eleven' were there on the Sunday, which would of course include Thomas.
If you wanted, it would be possible to go through this or that prophecy in context and show that the context related to something else. Isiah 55.5 for instance is about King David commanding foreign countries. Nothing to do with 20th c. events.
That rather illustrates the point that I was making; you can rummage through the OT and find passages that seem to validate Jesus as Messiah, or as you have done, pick passages that seem to presage current events. It's the same game played with Nostradamus.
But what is more telling is the gospel prophecies which can be seen to be reverse engineered. You have Matthew's prophecy of the Massacre of innocents which is nothing to do with that, even if the events was real, which it surely isn't. You have the cobbled -together passages intended to be prophecies of Judas' death, and you have John's passage about Piercing which needs a story about stabbing with a spear. The synoptic gospels report no such thing and Luke tacitly refutes that by having Jesus show his hands and feet while John has him displaying the wound in his side as well, and moreover to Thomas on a later occasion which Luke also refutes, because he shows that the 'eleven' were there on the Sunday, which would of course include Thomas.
If you wanted, it would be possible to go through this or that prophecy in context and show that the context related to something else. Isiah 55.5 for instance is about King David commanding foreign countries. Nothing to do with 20th c. events.
I do not expect you to credit any of these obvious validations because you do not believe we are receiving inspirations from God. The Truth is you have no real way to know what you claim with such certainty.
The validation that Jesus is the Messiah from God prophesied some 800 years before His birth is manifold. It may not be obvious to you, but I had little trouble seeing it. The silly and childish expectation that Thrill expresses that such ancient and primitive prophecies should be detailed and specific because they come from God is absurd. Expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species' SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But for the oblivious, I will repeat some of the salient highlights that are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophecy about the Christ. Who else can point to this kind of impact over millennia?]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophecy. Who else has become a leader of the Gentiles?]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophecy. Who else has been responsible for such an outcome?]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one. Who else has produced a similar outcome?]
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the cornerstone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly, the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone! Who else has the same history?]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so. ]
Jesus was something to be able to manipulate events and people for over 2000+ years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
All rather vague 'prophecies' with cherry picked passage pressed onto modern events.
The validation that Jesus is the Messiah from God prophesied some 800 years before His birth is manifold. It may not be obvious to you, but I had little trouble seeing it. The silly and childish expectation that Thrill expresses that such ancient and primitive prophecies should be detailed and specific because they come from God is absurd. Expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species' SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But for the oblivious, I will repeat some of the salient highlights that are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophecy about the Christ. Who else can point to this kind of impact over millennia?]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophecy. Who else has become a leader of the Gentiles?]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophecy. Who else has been responsible for such an outcome?]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one. Who else has produced a similar outcome?]
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the cornerstone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly, the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone! Who else has the same history?]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so. ]
Jesus was something to be able to manipulate events and people for over 2000+ years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
“Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (41:21)
The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy. Do you agree?
I do not expect you to credit any of these obvious validations because you do not believe we are receiving inspirations from God. The Truth is you have no real way to know what you claim with such certainty.
Thank you for confirming what I think your reasoning flaw it - you believe that anything that pops into your head must be true because "God" is putting it there. So even the clumsiest Quotemining that is clearly wrong when you put it back into context is known to be true on Faith. That is why you can't tell fact from fantasy.
it's a pity because it has blinded you to the correct way to reason or use science. Of course one cannot know - as i have mentioned before, "Down to the last Nanoparticle" what is true. But we should go with science and reason which has the best track record and not with Faith -based beliefs which have only a track record of being debunked by science.
When you look at the prophecy -claims even in their less clumsy manifestations as prophecies of Jesus rather than modern politics and find that they make sense better as praising King David in anticipation of God helping him to turn his enemies into footstools while he has drinks and pretzels with his god or wailing about it when he gets beat, or calling down curses on the Assyrians and prophecying that God will help the Judeans to defeat their many enemies (and you can find prophecy of modern events in there is you want. The Israelis rather rely on technology and tactics to help them win their battles than relying on God - though no doubt He gets the credit after they win) and swearing that their big brother messiah will be sent to beat their enemies up when they don't, then I totally lose track of what I was saying...Ah yes, then you see what the prophecies are really about - praising God when you win, and praising God in a torrent of tears when the tornado rips your house down.
Can you honestly say that that you cannot see why it is logically and evidentially correct for us to say that we do not believe in Bible prophecy, and certainly not yours, which are even less believable than the usual run of Jesus -predictions like Matthew's 'He shall be called a Nazarene" which nobody can find? Yes you honestly can, because Faith in your funny feelings has blinded you from thinking with a rational mind, and you cannot tell what makes sense from what doesn't .
I don't even touch on the historical prophecies like Babylon and Tyre (1) which simply didn't pan out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
All rather vague 'prophecies' with cherry picked passage pressed onto modern events.
As usual, some other poster says it better than me in far less words.
(1) I simply have to mention a piece of Eusebian cheek which claimed that the prophecy of Tyre was true - it was never rebuilt: they simply built a different city on top and called it Tyre.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-19-2018 at 05:44 AM..
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