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I am beyond astounded that ANYONE TODAY could even entertain such beliefs.
It's a heavy burden to bear at times being the rare human species who can't relate or understand how anyone could proclaim such irrational beliefs.
Why am I surprised?
It's clear that humans are wired towards being easily susceptible to adopting irrational beliefs and behaviors. Not to mention susceptible to being indoctrinated and sweet talked. That's not an advantageous trait if you stop to think about it.
I am beyond thankful that I am that rare human!
*shrug*
I remember back in the day when they would say the remnants of the ark had been found, up in the mountains of Turkey somewhere.
But of course, other than for the Fundamentalists and Bible literalists, it is a parable or storytelling - and even taught that way now in the Catholic school system as well.
This is what would be a so-called "Moderate Believer", that dismisses stories like this, and even Genesis as well.
But does it discredit the whole Bible? I don't think so.
I remember back in the day when they would say the remnants of the ark had been found, up in the mountains of Turkey somewhere.
But of course, other than for the Fundamentalists and Bible literalists, it is a parable or storytelling - and even taught that way now in the Catholic school system as well.
This is what would be a so-called "Moderate Believer", that dismisses stories like this, and even Genesis as well.
But does it discredit the whole Bible? I don't think so.
You could omit this story from the "bible" and the bible would still be a fable.
Or rather “Ginned Up”...And it is funny that folks like to trot out Josephus, I read in Josephus that according to some Histories that were written by the Barbarians that it was recorded that many people witnessed a large boat landing on the top of a mountain in Armenia with eight people on it, it was recorded that the people on top of this mountain fled there to escape, I think, what they considered as the flooding of the world...So, it would seem that Noah and family were not the only ones that survived...
Josephus wrote about Hercules too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41
I remember back in the day when they would say the remnants of the ark had been found, up in the mountains of Turkey somewhere.
But of course, other than for the Fundamentalists and Bible literalists, it is a parable or storytelling - and even taught that way now in the Catholic school system as well.
This is what would be a so-called "Moderate Believer", that dismisses stories like this, and even Genesis as well.
But does it discredit the whole Bible? I don't think so.
Yes...of course it discredits the whole Bible. It only needs one story to be proven false and it throws the whole 'truth' of the bible into question, especially if one considers it 'God's Word'. 'It only takes one white crow to prove that not all crows are black.'
...and as we know, there is far more than one Bible story that has been proven false.
so "you don't like religion because _____ " (you have your reasons)
and "you don't like how some religious people think and learn and believe because ____ " (you have your anectdotes)
you've even gone so far as to intimate there should be no freedom to choose religious beliefs (because you don't like people thinking differently than you do?)
One day, perhaps, Christians will get used to the new reality that they aren't the only belief system going in this country -- and now they have to taste the same bitter medicine we atheists have been swallowing for centuries. Someone dared to intimate that, perhaps, in his own private thoughts, people shouldn't have freedom of religion. Wow. How often has THAT happened? To feel the sharp sting of fascism coming at YOU for a change ...
Well, I don't agree that we shouldn't have the freedom to choose, but I understand where he's coming from. I just find it laughable considering how often Christians have tried to take EVERYONE'S (not just atheists) right to freely choose their religion (or at least try to force them to obey the Bible even if they don't believe in it). Many Christians have no respect at all for non-Christian beliefs and have tried again and again to run roughshod over other people's right to choose their own path in life.
Oh no, these Christians want, demand, and expect obedience to their God and adherence to the Bible no matter what you believe, no matter which god(s) you worship ... or if you worship any at all. They actually have a name now. They're called "dominionists" because they believe their religion should have dominion over the whole nation and, quite possibly, the whole world. Some well known dominionists include Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee.
And there are a number of them right here on this forum whether they know it or not.
I just think it's funny watching a Christian react to the possibility of losing her freedom to be a Christian even when the idea is said as a spoken thought by someone who has no power to actually make that happen. Yet we atheists have been dealing with losing our rights to be -- and act -- like atheists for decades, and unlike for Christians, we actually have to worry about nutjob fascist dominionists obtaining real power in this country. An atheist can't even get elected to be a small town dog catcher much less a congressman or the president -- largely thanks to Christian propaganda demonizing we atheists in every way humanly possible. How's that for "freedom?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
right? you don't have a problem at all with any of those statements, correct?
Hehe, look at you go! You tell 'em! Now you know how it feels ... given that we see crap almost every day from judges, congressmen, even a sitting president of the United States about how this "is a Christian nation" and we have to pass billboards on the way to work that read, "If you don't believe in God, you're not an American!" George H.W. Bush even said that atheists "may not be American citizens and they're certainly not patriots. This is a nation under God!"
What? Atheists lose their citizenship now? Just like the Jews under the Nazis, I guess. I really have no sympathy here because we have to face this as a reality -- not as a mere comment by a forum poster with no actual power. So by all means, keep going!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
reading this post it sounds like you are really uncomfortable with people thinking differently than you do,
Kinda like how so many Christians felt, and still feel, about ... gays! Wow! The parallels are astounding.
Of course now, that list has grown to include atheists, feminists, liberals, Democrats, minorities and immigrants (regardless of their legal status), Muslims, intellectuals -- many seem to take issue with folks who have advanced degrees, and even other Christians who belong to a different denomination.
They love Russia and adore Putin, though. How's THAT for being a "patriot" and an "American citizen!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
learning differently than you think they should
Check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
and holding different beliefs than you do.
Check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
you express acute intolerance
Check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
to the point of considering get rid of religious beliefs altogether.
And check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Regarding dictionary definitions, here is what the word "bigot" means: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
Oh right ... so THAT'S what that word means. But wait, you left something out. Here, let me fix it for you.
a person who is intolerant toward those holding Christian opinions.
Isn't that what you REALLY meant to say -- but just couldn't bring yourself to admit it?
Because I'm absolutely certain that the tens of millions of homosexuals persecuted and bashed by all the fundamentalists, evangelicals, and just plain intolerant Biblical cherry-pickers out there would just LOVE being told the defintion of a "bigot" by a big-time Christian.
That should keep 'em laughing for hours.
Yes, odd how it is that one person who merely expresses the idea that MAYBE religious freedom is a bad idea is a bigot ... but the millions upon millions of anti-gay bigots who actually banned gay marriage in 32 states and even pushed for a Constitutional amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman ... THEY aren't bigots. Of course not. They're just doing the Lord's work!
How many damn times have I watched Christians squirm and wriggle to get out from beneath the bigot label by claiming, no, WE atheists and LGBT allies are the intolerant ones -- because we're being intolerant of intolerance! Yeah! We're bigoted against bigots!
The stupidity never ceases to amaze me ... and it's not the warm, magical kind of amazement but the puke-inducing bile-in-the-throat kind.
As for all the things I said "check" to, yes, each and every one of those things are attitudes and actions displayed by Christians from forum posters to mega-church preachers to national politicians against we atheists. As I said, all of those things, we deal with in the REAL world damn near every day whilst the only threat you've dealt with is one person on a forum who said he THINKS about whether or not freedom of religion is a bad idea.
*sigh* I dunno. The more I read, the more disheartened I get ...
person who is intolerant toward those holding Christian opinions.
Isn't that what you REALLY meant to say -- but just couldn't bring yourself to admit it?
Just to avoid misconceptions (though the point remains valid if we make it "person who is intolerant toward those believing in God
Isn't that what you REALLY meant to say -- but just couldn't bring yourself to admit it?") Tzaph is Jewish. One of the Hassidim, I believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
so "you don't like religion because _____ " (you have your reasons)
and "you don't like how some religious people think and learn and believe because ____ " (you have your anectdotes)
you've even gone so far as to intimate there should be no freedom to choose religious beliefs (because you don't like people thinking differently than you do?)
so you must be thoroughly comfortable with people who "don't like atheism because _____ " (reasons)
and who "don't like atheists because ______" (antecdotes)
and surely you have no problem with people who say there should be no freedom to choose atheism (because of not liking people thinking differently?)
right? you don't have a problem at all with any of those statements, correct?
reading this post it sounds like you are really uncomfortable with people thinking differently than you do, learning differently than you think they should, and holding different beliefs than you do. you express acute intolerance to the point of considering get rid of religious beliefs altogether. Regarding dictionary definitions, here is what the word "bigot" means: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
This is a post for "I don't blame religions for..." I get where my mate Phet is arguing from, but you make a fair point - And it really comes down to 'This is what Humans do'. And that is because of what humans are like. And we know it's wron, and we know we could do better.
Some think we can do better by following religious laws. Some think that we can do better by following humanist philosophies. We have seen both go bad because of human fears and prejudices and explotation by bullies and the greedy.
The viewpoints - religion or irreligion - are not in themselves the problem, That's why I don't do 'The Great Atrocity Argument'. It is not the point. The point with the religion debate is whether it's true. If not, then atheism is correct by default.
As to humans weakness....no the answer is not in snobby elves or pointy -eared Vulcans. They are a human idea of what a Perfect Human would be like. And they are snobby and elitist. Denying human fault an weakness is not the answer. Accepting being human is a better one. Understanding what drives us and not excusing it with 'God wants this!' or 'We have to eradicate the poison of religion'. .
Yes, of course I think we do, (or take it out of society) but because it's false and teaches nonsense and tries to get social influence for the particular group. Atheism should NEVER become a group or party trying to gain power. It should be more like the world coming to accept that it isn't flat.
Yes...of course it discredits the whole Bible. It only needs one story to be proven false and it throws the whole 'truth' of the bible into question, especially if one considers it 'God's Word'. 'It only takes one white crow to prove that not all crows are black.'
...and as we know, there is far more than one Bible story that has been proven false.
Ta, old Bounder. I'd forgotten that this was the Ark - thread.
We did this 'Josephus on the Ark' long ago (though of course everyone wil have forgotten). Eusebius again, I think. I suspect that it was a 'Flave of the month' apologetic on a Bible -literalist site that ell the believers snapped up and Used in debate.
Linking it with Ararat, whether you choose the vaguely boat -shaped (which the Ark wouldn't have been) rock outcrop at Durupinar tourist booth or the NAMI fraud above the snowline, Josephus simply repeats the old stories (because, was he there at the time? No (1) and refers to a tourist trade in antiquity to bilk gullible believers who bought pieces of the True Cross at inflated prices....Sorry wrong relic scam...pieces of bitumen from the Actual Ark at inflated prices. This nearby town did so well out of it with the ruler creaming off a large slice in taxes, that he issued a city Denarius with a representation of the Ark on. This was presented as proof that the Ark was real and attested by History.
Rather like the coin with some heraldic city symbols on issued in Syria and claimed by someone looking to get some attention (if not to Prove the Gospels true) as Historical proof of Matthew's stupid mobile star.
Gah. I have to agree with Shirina. One can only laugh so much as this nonsense, Then it sticks in the craw.
(1) and (good ol' Eusebius again) in connection with the Exodus myth, we looked at Josephus on the Hyksos. And he was wrong. He was wrong because he was repeating history where they garbled what they knew and made up what they didn't. Science of course puts the clues together and gets better information than Biblical assaults of Hyksos fortresses.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-01-2018 at 04:31 AM..
Evidence for a Flood
Sediment layers suggest that 7,500 years ago Mediterranean water roared into the Black Sea...When the Mediterranean began to flow northward, it “popped the plug” and pushed those sediments into a “tongue” of loose sediment on the bottom of what would become the present-day Black Sea
It was this event that Pitman and Ryan believe could be the flood recorded in the Book of Genesis. The salt water poured through the deepening channel, creating a waterfall 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls ...
Thank you, I love this info! We need to know all this.
I apologize ...I should have been clearer...When I say, 'Come on"...I mean:
that a flood covered the entire planet...that Noah was capable to do all that was
said he did in the Bible...or that 'God' did it on purpose..THO....I was not there ...perhaps, God did, perhaps He was different back then?...or some other Being seemed to be God as a theory goes.
I am no scholar...what I know is limited to what I know my
Father to be now...Pure Love beyond imagination.
Oh, and sure Noah could have gotten warnings and there was a big, enclosed boat he made...
and we may find it still one day....water to the mountain tops around the world everyone and thing killed? No.
And there are similar sediment deposits all over the world that say the same thing for the exact same time? Because remember, the biblical flood story says it was a worldwide flood.
Think about it, what did the ancients think the world was?...What was their perspective?...
One day, perhaps, Christians will get used to the new reality that they aren't the only belief system going in this country -- and now they have to taste the same bitter medicine we atheists have been swallowing for centuries. Someone dared to intimate that, perhaps, in his own private thoughts, people shouldn't have freedom of religion. Wow. How often has THAT happened? To feel the sharp sting of fascism coming at YOU for a change ...
Well, I don't agree that we shouldn't have the freedom to choose, but I understand where he's coming from. I just find it laughable considering how often Christians have tried to take EVERYONE'S (not just atheists) right to freely choose their religion (or at least try to force them to obey the Bible even if they don't believe in it). Many Christians have no respect at all for non-Christian beliefs and have tried again and again to run roughshod over other people's right to choose their own path in life.
Oh no, these Christians want, demand, and expect obedience to their God and adherence to the Bible no matter what you believe, no matter which god(s) you worship ... or if you worship any at all. They actually have a name now. They're called "dominionists" because they believe their religion should have dominion over the whole nation and, quite possibly, the whole world. Some well known dominionists include Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee.
And there are a number of them right here on this forum whether they know it or not.
I just think it's funny watching a Christian react to the possibility of losing her freedom to be a Christian even when the idea is said as a spoken thought by someone who has no power to actually make that happen. Yet we atheists have been dealing with losing our rights to be -- and act -- like atheists for decades, and unlike for Christians, we actually have to worry about nutjob fascist dominionists obtaining real power in this country. An atheist can't even get elected to be a small town dog catcher much less a congressman or the president -- largely thanks to Christian propaganda demonizing we atheists in every way humanly possible. How's that for "freedom?"
Hehe, look at you go! You tell 'em! Now you know how it feels ... given that we see crap almost every day from judges, congressmen, even a sitting president of the United States about how this "is a Christian nation" and we have to pass billboards on the way to work that read, "If you don't believe in God, you're not an American!" George H.W. Bush even said that atheists "may not be American citizens and they're certainly not patriots. This is a nation under God!"
What? Atheists lose their citizenship now? Just like the Jews under the Nazis, I guess. I really have no sympathy here because we have to face this as a reality -- not as a mere comment by a forum poster with no actual power. So by all means, keep going!
Kinda like how so many Christians felt, and still feel, about ... gays! Wow! The parallels are astounding.
Of course now, that list has grown to include atheists, feminists, liberals, Democrats, minorities and immigrants (regardless of their legal status), Muslims, intellectuals -- many seem to take issue with folks who have advanced degrees, and even other Christians who belong to a different denomination.
They love Russia and adore Putin, though. How's THAT for being a "patriot" and an "American citizen!"
Check.
Check.
Check.
And check.
Oh right ... so THAT'S what that word means. But wait, you left something out. Here, let me fix it for you.
a person who is intolerant toward those holding Christian opinions.
Isn't that what you REALLY meant to say -- but just couldn't bring yourself to admit it?
Because I'm absolutely certain that the tens of millions of homosexuals persecuted and bashed by all the fundamentalists, evangelicals, and just plain intolerant Biblical cherry-pickers out there would just LOVE being told the defintion of a "bigot" by a big-time Christian.
That should keep 'em laughing for hours.
Yes, odd how it is that one person who merely expresses the idea that MAYBE religious freedom is a bad idea is a bigot ... but the millions upon millions of anti-gay bigots who actually banned gay marriage in 32 states and even pushed for a Constitutional amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman ... THEY aren't bigots. Of course not. They're just doing the Lord's work!
How many damn times have I watched Christians squirm and wriggle to get out from beneath the bigot label by claiming, no, WE atheists and LGBT allies are the intolerant ones -- because we're being intolerant of intolerance! Yeah! We're bigoted against bigots!
The stupidity never ceases to amaze me ... and it's not the warm, magical kind of amazement but the puke-inducing bile-in-the-throat kind.
As for all the things I said "check" to, yes, each and every one of those things are attitudes and actions displayed by Christians from forum posters to mega-church preachers to national politicians against we atheists. As I said, all of those things, we deal with in the REAL world damn near every day whilst the only threat you've dealt with is one person on a forum who said he THINKS about whether or not freedom of religion is a bad idea.
*sigh* I dunno. The more I read, the more disheartened I get ...
You do know that Tzaphkiel is a Jew, right?...
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the answer is not in snobby elves or pointy -eared Vulcans. They are a human idea of what a Perfect Human would be like. And they are snobby and elitist. Denying human fault an weakness is not the answer. Accepting being human is a better one. Understanding what drives us and not excusing it with 'God wants this!' or 'We have to eradicate the poison of religion'. . 
Yes, of course I think we do, (or take it out of society) but because it's false and teaches nonsense and tries to get social influence for the particular group. Atheism should NEVER become a group or party trying to gain power. It should be more like the world coming to accept that it isn't flat.
thread. 
wrong relic scam...pieces of bitumen from the Actual Ark at inflated prices. This nearby town did so well out of it with the ruler creaming off a large slice in taxes, that he issued a city Denarius with a representation of the Ark on. This was presented as proof that the Ark was real and attested by History.
