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If I thought it would make a difference I would. As it is, I think I'm done on this thread, to be honest. Katzpur has ignored the first question I posted, and it doesn't look like she has any intention of answering it.
Why do people of other faiths need to answer questions about them when the topic is the Mormon faith? How did BF 'run away'? Why are posts being made directly about him or her instead of sticking to the topic?
If you believe that Jesus is God, but not THE GOD of the Bible, then that means you're a polytheist. That is explicitly condemned in Scripture. God is God, there are none others like him.
I do believe that Jesus is God, and that He is the God of the Bible. And no, I am not a polytheist. Did you read the passage from The Book of Mormon which speaks of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as "one God"?
If I thought it would make a difference I would. As it is, I think I'm done on this thread, to be honest. Katzpur has ignored the first question I posted, and it doesn't look like she has any intention of answering it.
Funny, she seems to answer everyone else, or at least that is my perception. Katzpur and I disagree significantly on these religious issues, but you can see that one can have a rigorous discussion that certainly involves in disagreement, yet it can be done respectfully.
I'm sure if you put your mind to it, you too could emulate that.
Yes, I was mostly aware of the procedure to pick the church president.
Now, of course Ellen White would not be an Apostle in the LDS church... she was not a Mormon. But let's go back to Joseph Smith, who DID proclaim himself to be a prophet. Why is one 'legitimate' and the other not? After all, Smith had to rely on a new book he wrote, and White only on the interpretation of an old one.
Okay, I see what you mean. I sort of misunderstood your question, even though it's clear to me now what you were asking. Mormonism teaches that a person should always go to God with His questions concerning what is true and what is not. Obviously, it's a subjective matter, but I'd say that anyone who believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that Ellen White was not received this testimony as a result of prayer.
In Matthew 16:13-17, we read of a conversation Jesus had with His Apostles. It went like this:
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
Jesus was telling Peter that spiritual truths can be known in only one way and that it through God, using the Holy Ghost as a witness. Mortal men (i.e. flesh and blood) can be very persuasive, but that doesn't mean that even the most articulate, well-educated man in the world is telling you the truth. The Book of Mormon contains a verse near the end, urging the reason to ask God if the things he's read are not or not. That's what Mormon missionaries tell people. They say, "Don't trust us. Don't trust Joseph Smith. Trust in God. Ask him your questions and pay attention to His answer. Then do as He tells you to do."
Because you are an atheist, this advice is nothing short of ridiculous in your mind. But you asked the question, and that's the only way I can answer it.
Thanks for taking the effort to respond to the many who are throwing questions at you. I don't agree with much of your interpretation, and every once in awhile you come across as a bit frustrated, which we all would be.
But thanks for a cogent discussion. There are a few on this board who have been directly asked to discuss their perspectives and have refused (BaptistFundie, I'm looking at you), and it is appreciated that you can do so in the manner you have.
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Originally Posted by TroutDude
Although I do not share Katz' beliefs, her character and honesty is admirable. She is a credit to her religion.
And there is nothing to admire about one who asserts, accuses, and when questioned closely, runs away.
If I thought it would make a difference I would. As it is, I think I'm done on this thread, to be honest. Katzpur has ignored the first question I posted, and it doesn't look like she has any intention of answering it.
And what was the first question you asked me, BF? I haven't intentionally ignored anyone's questions, but it's entirely possible that, with so many questions being thrown at me, I may have missed it.
I'm not interjecting my opinion on the matter. I am quoting scripture. The one you 'quoted' from Paul, which comes from Corinthians, does not support the Doctrine of plural Gods at all. Paul is talking about Idols and how there is no God but God. And sacrificing of animals. I'm not sure how that got twisted into supporting multiple Gods at all.
So you don't believe Paul? He was talking about the existence of beings who are "called gods" both on earth and in heaven. The Bible does mention other gods in several places in the Old Testament. On six different occasions, the God of Abraham, the God of the Bible, the God Christians of all denominations (including mine) is described as being the "God of gods." If you are going to insist that every mention of "gods" (with a lower-case 'g') is referring to false gods, then you would have no choice but to say that God is the "God of false gods." I don't believe He is, and I don't think you do either.
So who are these other "gods"? Who are the gods that our God is the God of? We have no idea, because the Bible simply doesn't tell us. It indicates that such beings do exist, but we are told in very plain terms that we are not to worship them. They have nothing to do with us, nor should we have anything to do with them. We should not pray to them because they can neither hear nor answer our prayers. We should not worship them because they have never done anything for us, nor are they able to. They are simply beings that the Bible refers to as "gods" and for whom our God is also their God.
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Becoming Godlike is a different conversation altogether than what Joseph Smith taught, that God was once a man and exalted to Godhood, and we can do the same.
Actually I think that becoming Godlike is precisely what Joseph Smith was talking about. And I believe that it's what C.S. Lewis (heretic that he was ) was talking about when he said what he did about God making even the feeblest among us a god or a goddess. Mormons believe that God is our Father in Heaven. We believe that He created the spirits of each and every one of us and that we are His spirit offspring. We see real meaning in the phrase, "Father in Heaven." It's not just some alternative way for us to address our Maker. We believe that He knows each and every one of us perfectly and loves us unconditionally. He also wants the best for us, which is to become what His own offspring ought to have the potential to become. He would not be pleased if we didn't want to become like Him.
Joseph Smith and the LDS Church following him have taught that God the Father was once a mortal man who became exalted to Godhood.
Joseph Smith once gave a funeral sermon in which He taught that God the Father was once a mortal man who became exalted to Godhood. This sermon was never canonized, meaning that this teaching is and never has been doctrinally binding on the Latter-day Saints. We actually have no official doctrine concerning the origins of God.
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Human beings, according to LDS teaching, were preexistent spirits that needed to become physical, flesh-and-blood beings in order to progress toward becoming gods.
Yes, we do believe that we had a pro-mortal existence where we lived in God's presence as beings comprised solely of spirit. Our taking on a mortal body was, in fact, part of God's plan for our eternal progression. You got that much right.
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Biblically, of course, God the Father has no need of a physical body and is already completely and fully God without one.
Whether God the Father "needs" a physical body is beside the point. He would be God regardless of whether He did or not, just as the Holy Ghost, who has no physical body, is God.
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LDS theology faces an interesting dilemma at this point. On the one hand, if one holds that the Father was a man before he became a God (as Joseph Smith taught), this establishes precedent for us to become gods, but invites the question of how Jesus—or the Holy Ghost—became a god.
It's not a dilemma for us, jencam, even though it may be for you. We don't have to have all the answers to all of the questions that one might ask. We do know that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost were all "God" from before the foundations of this world. They were "God" "before the beginning" or "before the clock started ticking," so to speak. The Bible is silent on what was taking place "before the beginning," but if God has always existed, it's certainly not much of a stretch to believe He was doing something all along. Latter-day Saints have some beliefs that address what God might have been doing before He created our world. These are, however, speculation, and do not really have all that much bearing on our own salvation and progression.
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On the other hand, if one holds that the Father was God before he became a man, this explains how Jesus and the Holy Ghost might also be gods, but eliminates any precedent for us, who are not already gods, to become gods. Of course, this second view also has the problem that it does not agree with what Joseph Smith taught at the end of his life.
And what might you be thinking of concerning "what Joseph Smith taught at the end of his life"?
It's interesting that you'd choose to reference an anti-Mormon website to explain what Mormons believe. Wasn't the LDS one good enough for you? Here it is: Becoming like God.
Okay, I see what you mean. I sort of misunderstood your question, even though it's clear to me now what you were asking. Mormonism teaches that a person should always go to God with His questions concerning what is true and what is not. Obviously, it's a subjective matter, but I'd say that anyone who believed that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that Ellen White was not received this testimony as a result of prayer.
In Matthew 16:13-17, we read of a conversation Jesus had with His Apostles. It went like this:
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
Jesus was telling Peter that spiritual truths can be known in only one way and that it through God, using the Holy Ghost as a witness. Mortal men (i.e. flesh and blood) can be very persuasive, but that doesn't mean that even the most articulate, well-educated man in the world is telling you the truth. The Book of Mormon contains a verse near the end, urging the reason to ask God if the things he's read are not or not. That's what Mormon missionaries tell people. They say, "Don't trust us. Don't trust Joseph Smith. Trust in God. Ask him your questions and pay attention to His answer. Then do as He tells you to do."
Because you are an atheist, this advice is nothing short of ridiculous in your mind. But you asked the question, and that's the only way I can answer it.
From where are you quoting? You don't provide links.
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) was talking about when he said what he did about God making even the feeblest among us a god or a goddess. Mormons believe that God is our Father in Heaven. We believe that He created the spirits of each and every one of us and that we are His spirit offspring. We see real meaning in the phrase, "Father in Heaven." It's not just some alternative way for us to address our Maker. We believe that He knows each and every one of us perfectly and loves us unconditionally. He also wants the best for us, which is to become what His own offspring ought to have the potential to become. He would not be pleased if we didn't want to become like Him.