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Here is where you claim that the Manifestos ended Mormon Polygamy:
The are two possibilities for the Manifestos - they either address legal or spiritual issues.
If they address legal issues, they are empty, meaningless promises, as they promise to stop that which in fact the church wasn’t doing - performing legal polygamous marriages. It’s pretty easy to promise to stop that which you aren’t doing, but it is meaningless. Note that the Manifestos have nothing to do with cohabitation, only performing plural marriages in the temples.
For the manifestos to have any meaning, they need to be promises to stop that which the church was in fact doing - performing spiritual polygamous sealings. This hasn’t been done.
There is only one essential component to Mormon polygamy - that a man is sealed to multiple women. Everything else, cohabitation, sex, children, etc. are irrelevant to Mormon polygamy. The manifestos are silent on those points, and only address “plural marriages” performed in the temples. If “plural marriages” means legal plural marriages, then, as I stated previously, the manifestos are meaningless as they are simply promises to stop doing that which they weren’t doing. If the manifestos addressed the spiritual polygamous sealings that the church was in fact doing, then they are simply untrue, as polygamous sealings continue today.
So, where does that leave us with regards to the manifestos? Either empty meaningless promises, or untruths. And in neither case do they serve to prevent Mormons from engaging in the Mormon version of polygamy, in spite of your claim above.
Now you are simply being dishonest because it rankles you that you were wrong . The Manifestos were not empty promises, as polygamy , defined by the US in the law against Mormon polygamy , ended after the old guard died out . End of story . It ended . Over . Done . Polygamy as defined by the US law is no longer practiced by Mormons. And it WAS being practiced prior to the anti polygamy act, which of course is specifically WHY a law was passed to stop it . It was still practiced after the first Manifesto, which is WHY the newer Prophet issued a second Manifesto promising punishment for those that continued to disobey the first Manifesto. So your claim about empty promises is nonsensical.
As to the sealings and spiritual marriages, nobody cares except Mormons , including the US government that targeted the Mormons with anti polygamy laws.
So where it leaves us is that the Manifestos did what they were designed to do, end polygamy as defined and outlawed by the US government. Your seeming inability to grasp this does not change this any. They worked, and furthermore the fundy Mormons left the mainline Mormons specifically because the Manifestos worked in eliminating polygamy as defined by the US government. ( I have to keep repeating the previous phrase over and over because you have shown yourself to be inordinately obtuse on the issue).
Last edited by wallflash; 09-19-2018 at 02:09 PM..
Now you are simply being dishonest because it rankles you that you were wrong . The Manifestos were not empty promises, as polygamy , defined by the US in the law against Mormon polygamy , ended after the old guard died out . End of story . It ended . Over . Done . Polygamy as defined by the US law is no longer practiced by Mormons. So your claim about empty promises is nonsensical.
As to the sealings and spiritual marriages, nobody cares except Mormons , including the US government that targeted the Mormons with anti polygamy laws.
So where it leaves us is that the Manifestos did what they were designed to do, end polygamy as defined and outlawed by the US government. Your seeming inability to grasp this does not change this any. They worked, and furthermore the fundy Mormons left the mainline Mormons specifically because the Nanifestos worked in eliminating polygamy as defined by the US government. ( I have to keep repeating the previous phrase over and over because you ave shown yourself to be inordinately obtuse on the issue).
Well, it's nice to hear someone without a dog in the fight say what I've been saying.
As to the sealings and spiritual marriages, nobody cares except Mormons
Sealing = Temple/Spiritual Marriage. BTW.
You are correct that it only matters to them. To what they believe, which is the topic. So let's talk about how the very real to them issue of plural marriage in the Temple often plays out.
The devout Mormon woman in this article faces a dilemma. She wants to get married in the Temple. This is essential to the Mormon belief for the fate of her afterlife and that of her children from a prior marriage, who cannot be sealed to her any other way than her being sealed to a Mormon Man.
Even if she didn't have children, her spiritual progression cannot continue to the highest levels w/o being sealed to a Mormon man in the Temple (Temple Marriage).
Before she met the Mormon man she would eventually marry, this was of great concern to her. She was told God would work it out somehow, even if she never got sealed, which means that they'd seal her after death to someone, but they don't tell them that, so there is no comfort in 'God will work it out' because it's in direct conflict with the teachings of what she must do on earth to gain the blessings.
But I digress. On to her polygamy dilemma: Her husband was married before. He got a legal divorce, but not a Temple divorce, and to you it's imaginary and doesn't matter but your beliefs are not the topic, theirs are. To them it is not imaginary at all and all that goes on in the Temple, the spirit realm, is the most important for them.
That Temple marriage is the meaningful one to them. He can get clearance to Temple marry her. Clearance to take a second wife in the Temple, but he cannot get the first sealing cancelled, as they call it. He can't get a temple divorce.
She has two choices: forego all the eternal blessings that Temple marriage and only Temple marriage can give her and her children, or be in a polygamous marriage with her husband and his first wife.
For her, this is a big problem. She says it is for her husband too. They don't believe in polygamy on earth or in the Temple/afterlife and they don't want it. Which is too bad. The first wife hasn't remarried in the Temple. Her spiritual eternity would be wrecked were the cancellation to occur. Even if she gave permission, the Church would not allow it.
The Manifesto said no more plural marriages would be done in the Temple. They are still doing it.
If they were, there would be a whole lot of arrests taking place. As wallflash keeps reminding TaxPhd and now you,
Quote:
the Manifestos did what they were designed to do, end polygamy as defined and outlawed by the US government.
Why on earth do you even care whether some Mormon man will have more than one wife in Heaven? If you're like most Christians, you probably believe that there will be no marriage in Heaven at all. I can't figure out what difference it could possibly make to you unless you are concerned that maybe the LDS Church might have it right after all. If you're right, it will all work out in the end and nobody was will married in Heaven. So why all the fuss?
What is incorrect about this? Are you asserting that before the manifestos there were legal marriages to wives number 2-40? If so, do you have a source for that? That is not my understanding. My understanding is that all wives after the first were always Temple marriages only.
The Manifesto said that no more temple marriages would be done to effect 2-40 more wives, insofar as marriages with the intent of co-habitating with the subsequent wives, having sexual relations and children with them, etc. like what had been occurring. No one has disputed that.
But there is still the issue that the Church will seal a man to more than one woman at a time. Which by my reading of the Manifesto, is a violation of it.
However, it was carefully crafted to only deal with USG legal issues. In fact,
The type of polygamy you want to only focus on still went on to be approved by the church in other countries.
But the point that many are trying to make is the polygamy lives on in the Temple, that is the part that really matters to the Mormons. Those marriages are the ones that give them their blessings in the afterlife.
There were marriages and living arrangements that went against US law, which is why Mormon men went to prison for violating a law you say wasn't being done. How does that work then? How do over 1000 Mormon men get sent to prison for polygamy if it isn't happening as both of you wish to claim? I'm very interested in hearing an explanation for why a thousand Mormons went to prison for something that wasn't being done .
And you are right, the type of polygamy I am talking about might have been done in other countries after the Manifestos. The Manifestos addressed the US problem, and promised to follow the laws of the land . If other countries allow polygamy, the Manifestos do not state they can't allow it there .
And to be clear, the point you and Tax are trying to make is to pretend that church lied when it said it would give up polygamy, so you can attack from there.
The Manifesto said no more plural marriages would be done in the Temple. They are still doing it.
Moderator cut: Personal attack Multiple posts showing with the actual text how the Manifestos address only the having-sex-with-multiple-wives physical type of polygamy as defined by the US government, and yet you revert back to square one making the same debunked claim again using this spiritual sealings stuff.
*sigh*
Moderator cut: Personal attack
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 09-19-2018 at 05:04 PM..
Reason: Personal attacks deleted
She has two choices: forego all the eternal blessings that Temple marriage and only Temple marriage can give her and her children, or be in a polygamous marriage with her husband and his first wife.
For her, this is a big problem. She says it is for her husband too. They don't believe in polygamy on earth or in the Temple/afterlife and they don't want it. Which is too bad. The first wife hasn't remarried in the Temple. Her spiritual eternity would be wrecked were the cancellation to occur.
How little you've learned out of this discussion. You went into it thinking you knew it all, and you haven't changed your mind at all. Not only that, you actually think you're in some kind of position to say under what conditions someone's "spiritual eternity [will] be wrecked." Un-frickin' believable.
God is not going to force anybody to be married to someone throughout eternity that he/she doesn't want to be married to, and one's own salvation is not contingent upon anyone's behavior but one's own. Why would you think so little of God that you'd believe otherwise? God is not bound by men's rules and policies, and temple marriage is intended to be a blessing. If you seriously believe that people are going to be stuck in some big, unhappy polygamous family in Heaven, you are even more clueless than I've been thinking.
Moderator cut: Personal attack Multiple posts showing with the actual text how the Manifestos address only the having-sex-with-multiple-wives physical type of polygamy as defined by the US government, and yet you revert back to square one making the same debunked claim again using this spiritual sealings stuff.
*sigh*
Moderator cut: Personal attack.
Sorry, I can't rep you yet, but you hit the nail right on the head with this post.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 09-19-2018 at 05:05 PM..
Reason: Quoted post edited
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If you're right, it will all work out in the end and nobody was will married in Heaven. So why all the fuss?
