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OK, people. We do not bash religions here. I don't know why this thread was started here instead of the Judaism forum, but let's show a little respect here.
I'm curious a to why you posted that entry (I haven't been following the argument here). It tells of a town of Jews that was wiped out and speaks of the persecution of the Jews. What point were you making with it?
That was what I thought. Moorish Spain produced a number of notable Jews (Maimonides, I believe was working there) and I have read of some cultural progress by the Muslims there, but it clearly wasn't all good for the Jews.
I'm curious a to why you posted that entry (I haven't been following the argument here). It tells of a town of Jews that was wiped out and speaks of the persecution of the Jews. What point were you making with it?
My point is that Jews were not poor hapless victims for 2,000 years, as Hannibal claims; he and Richard just run around falsely accusing people of 'antisemitism' if they point out some Jewish history that doesn't fit the Xian bashing narratives, so I'm educating him to some historical facts. the first part of the article is the relevant part, re Jews were Muslim allies and many arrived with them as soldiers in the conquests.
The Spanish Inquisition is something Richard throws out in attempts to smear people with the antisemitism claim whenever one disagrees with some fiction if his; I'm providing the both of them with some historical background on why Jews in general were not trusted by Europeans and why it isn't just mindless evul Xian bigotry involved. Jews were part of the Muslim invasions, and were soldiers put in charge of several cities, hence the Spanish 'bigotry' toward them when the lands were finally re-conquered. Some people hate historical facts that don't fit their fantasies; apparently not even remotely a problem for Jewish scholars, thankfully.
"I asked myself how such large Jewish communities appeared in Spain. And then I saw that Tariq ibn Ziyad, the supreme commander of the Muslims who conquered Spain, was a Berber, and most of his soldiers were Berbers. Dahia al-Kahina's Jewish Berber kingdom had been defeated only 15 years earlier. And the truth is there are a number of Christian sources that say many of the conquerors of Spain were Jewish converts. The deep-rooted source of the large Jewish community in Spain was those Berber soldiers who converted to Judaism."-
I don't care for the site itself, but it mirrors an article from Haaretz on Jewish history for which my bookmark link no longer works, an interview with Tel Aviv University Professor Shlomo Sand. The article link above is pretty much self-explanatory and refers to some aspects of Jewish history that apparently isn't popular with some, and related to some issues the earlier link brings up as well. I'm posting them and more later so people need not get cowed by cranks here, or Xian bashing Jewish bigots, either.
"Over the past couple of years, I’ve mentioned in several JewishPress.com articles that there are huge differences between our views of Islam and of Christianity—the former generally considered a fine religion for gentiles, the latter considered, essentially, idol worship. My source for those statements, which most yeshiva-schooled Jews are familiar with, is Maimonides. And since it’s difficult to describe traditional Judaism without Maimonides, what he says on these issues is followed and adhered by the vast majority of observant Jews."
I am not Jewish, I am THE Christian, not a Jewish bigot, I am a Gentile in the original Christianity that was made up of Gentile converts to Judaism.
Not interested in your ridiculous nonsense any more.
Moving onward ...
"It remains a fact that the Jews, either directly or through their coreligionists in Africa, encouraged the Mohammedans to conquer Spain and that they greeted them as their deliverers."-
"Spain," The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. XI, New York/London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1905, p. 485.
"The Jews of Africa, who at various times had emigrated thither from Spain, and their unlucky co-religionists of the Peninsula, made common cause with the Mahometan conqueror, Tarik, who brought over from Africa into Andalusia an army eager for the fray. After the battle of Xeres (July, 711), and the death of Roderic, the last of the Visigothic kings, the victorious Arabs pushed onward, and were everywhere supported by the Jews. In every city that they conquered, the Moslem generals were able to leave but a small garrison of their own troops, as they had need of every man for the subjection of the country; they therefore confided them to the safekeeping of the Jews. In this manner the Jews, who but lately had been serfs, now became the masters of the towns of Cordova, Granada, Malaga, and many others. When Tarik appeared before the capital, Toledo, he found it occupied by a small garrison only, the nobles and clergy having found safety in flight. While the Christians were in church, praying for the safety of their country and religion, the Jews flung open the gates to the victorious Arabs (Palm Sunday, 712), receiving them with acclamations, and thus avenged themselves for the many miseries which had befallen them in the course of a century since the time of Reccared and Sisebut. The capital also was entrusted by Tarik to the custody of the Jews, while he pushed on in pursuit of the cowardly Visigoths, who had sought safety in flight, for the purpose of recovering from them the treasure which they had carried off. Finally when Musa Ibn-Nosair, the Governor of Africa, brought a second army into Spain and conquered other cities, he also delivered them into the custody of the Jews."
Professor Heinrich Graetz, History of the Jews, London: David Nutt, 1892, Vol. III, p. 109.
My point is that Jews were not poor hapless victims for 2,000 years, as Hannibal claims; he and Richard just run around falsely accusing people of 'antisemitism' if they point out some Jewish history that doesn't fit the Xian bashing narratives, so I'm educating him to some historical facts. the first part of the article is the relevant part, re Jews were Muslim allies and many arrived with them as soldiers in the conquests.
The Spanish Inquisition is something Richard throws out in attempts to smear people with the antisemitism claim whenever one disagrees with some fiction if his; I'm providing the both of them with some historical background on why Jews in general were not trusted by Europeans and why it isn't just mindless evul Xian bigotry involved. Jews were part of the Muslim invasions, and were soldiers put in charge of several cities, hence the Spanish 'bigotry' toward them when the lands were finally re-conquered. Some people hate historical facts that don't fit their fantasies; apparently not even remotely a problem for Jewish scholars, thankfully.
"I asked myself how such large Jewish communities appeared in Spain. And then I saw that Tariq ibn Ziyad, the supreme commander of the Muslims who conquered Spain, was a Berber, and most of his soldiers were Berbers. Dahia al-Kahina's Jewish Berber kingdom had been defeated only 15 years earlier. And the truth is there are a number of Christian sources that say many of the conquerors of Spain were Jewish converts. The deep-rooted source of the large Jewish community in Spain was those Berber soldiers who converted to Judaism."-
I don't care for the site itself, but it mirrors an article from Haaretz on Jewish history for which my bookmark link no longer works, an interview with Tel Aviv University Professor Shlomo Sand. The article link above is pretty much self-explanatory and refers to some aspects of Jewish history that apparently isn't popular with some, and related to some issues the earlier link brings up as well. I'm posting them and more later so people need not get cowed by cranks here, or Xian bashing Jewish bigots, either.
I don't think the claim is that Jews were hapless victims for 2000 years straight, meaning every day, but that there has been a chain of anti-Semitism for 2000 years. The article you posted describes murders, forced conversions and expulsions against Jews. I'm not sure how that proves anything other than victim status. The fact that on a Tuesday, Jews weren't being killed, and on Wednesday, they were doing OK, doesn't mean that for the decade, they are not being oppressed. I'm living a fine life in the US, but I am still in exile, victim to anti-Semitism and the whims of the local governments (one of which recently got in trouble for passing ordinances against Jews).
"Over the past couple of years, I’ve mentioned in several JewishPress.com articles that there are huge differences between our views of Islam and of Christianity—the former generally considered a fine religion for gentiles, the latter considered, essentially, idol worship. My source for those statements, which most yeshiva-schooled Jews are familiar with, is Maimonides. And since it’s difficult to describe traditional Judaism without Maimonides, what he says on these issues is followed and adhered by the vast majority of observant Jews."
...
Rabbis have made a religious ruling so that those who had been forcibly converted did not have to convert back to Judaism when saved from the Islamic rulers. By calling Islam not idolatry FOR NON-JEWS Maimonides was ruling on whether they are qualified as Noahides. This is unrelated to whether he was ever tortured. One person's experience doesn't always reflect an overall experience
Rosends, you have done an admirable job remaining calm and offering responses. Sadly, much of what you have had to respond to has been little more than negative remarks about Judaism. There hasn't been a recent post that was even remotely related to "Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus."
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