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Old 04-03-2008, 08:29 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,153 posts, read 5,501,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post

4. Atheists must believe in mind reading because I see this a lot.

5. We can agree to disagree on this one to a degree. There may or may not be right and wrong if there is no god, but what is for sure is that you cannot prove ethics rationally.
4. Where do you draw that conclusion from? I would say that atheists are the most likely to deny the existence of "psychics". Name one atheist who has acknowledged the "ability" of someone who claims to read minds. You probably aren't talking about atheists. You are just talking about people who are not Christians.

5. Whether you disagree or not, I will be moral. I don't need some belief in a god to be a good person.

I find it funny how believers try to define our position, insist they are right, but have no clue what they are talking about. There is no "atheistic utopia". Not all atheists are alike.
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,620,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marodi View Post
I agree. It's hard to argue against someone that can believe in something with absolutely no evidence of existance.
You can go around chanting the atheist mantra that theists have no evidence for their belief, but I think personal experience translates into pretty solid evidence. Also, I just don't think you have a very good argument by saying, "you have no evidence." Although, it is more reasonable to be provided with evidence before believing something, (and thus, it is more logical from your standpoint to not believe in God), but you don't actually have any evidence against the existence of God or evidence for God not existing. This is not a good reason to have the level of certainty that most atheists have in their belief. From your perspective, I would think the most reasonable conclusion to reach would be atheism with a heavy dose of agnosticism--not the level of belief that stalks around forums telling believers they are unreasonable.

Last edited by ainulinale; 04-03-2008 at 10:00 PM.. Reason: Clarity
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:32 PM
 
552 posts, read 685,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
5. We can agree to disagree on this one to a degree. There may or may not be right and wrong if there is no god, but what is for sure is that you cannot prove ethics rationally.
Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philosophy aside, there are evolutionary biologists that believe morality and "goodness" are things we as humans are genetically predisposed to.
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:32 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,153 posts, read 5,501,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
Ron Paul also supports prayer in schools if the majority of the people in locality want that (Last time I checked he also wanted to overturn Roe Vs. Wade - but I digress). I think that sucks and its too bad because I agree with the main idea behind libertarianism. Sorry to interrupt - carry on with the topic...Wait - what's the topic?
I agreed with him more than anything. Most Libertarians do. He's the closest to Libertarian, lol.

The topic is essentially "These leaders were atheists no matter what you say and they committed acts in the name of it."
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,620,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter View Post
Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philosophy aside, there are evolutionary biologists that believe morality and "goodness" are things we as humans are genetically predisposed to.
I don't really care, to define something as "right" requires some level of value judgment or presupposition before something can be logically defined as such.
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:41 PM
 
552 posts, read 685,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
I don't really care, to define something as "right" requires some level of value judgment or presupposition before something can be logically defined as such.
"I don't really care": The adult's way of saying "NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEEEEEEEEEAAAAR YOUUUU"
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: South Central PA
1,561 posts, read 2,777,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
If you supported Ron Paul and you think drug use, gun ownership, and prostitution are human rights, I think you qualify. Most old school conservatives would be considered Libertarian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
Ron Paul also supports prayer in schools if the majority of the people in locality want that (Last time I checked he also wanted to overturn Roe Vs. Wade - but I digress). I think that sucks and its too bad because I agree with the main idea behind libertarianism. Sorry to interrupt - carry on with the topic...Wait - what's the topic?
Although I disagree with the prayer in school thing, the majority of his stances I believed. He also stated that abortion rights should be done by states and not by federal government, so his stance on roe v wade is just a personal one which he wouldn't subject the country to. I think the benefits of legalizing drugs (which I have never used, including cigarrettes, so I'm not biased for it) far out weigh the negatives. It's my body, I should have the right to do what I want, drugs, sex, rock and roll, etc.

And I think the topic is hitler?
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,620,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
4. Where do you draw that conclusion from? I would say that atheists are the most likely to deny the existence of "psychics". Name one atheist who has acknowledged the "ability" of someone who claims to read minds. You probably aren't talking about atheists. You are just talking about people who are not Christians.
I just got rep for my statement....think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
5. Whether you disagree or not, I will be moral. I don't need some belief in a god to be a good person.

I find it funny how believers try to define our position, insist they are right, but have no clue what they are talking about. There is no "atheistic utopia". Not all atheists are alike.
I never defined your position. I just pointed out your elevation of the use of logic to justify all belief, and yet the belief in morality cannot be justified purely by rationality.
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,153 posts, read 5,501,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moetman View Post
Thanks for your input on the thread Haaziq.

1. Actually, I posted a link that backed up my statement about nonreligious nations. I suggest you take a look at it.

If you are talking about the "Journal of Religion and Society". That study is limited to 18 countries all of which are western or OECD/developed nations. The study is also subject to the bias of the beliefs of the Institute from which it originated. The study failed to mention the other 177 recognized countries at present. The stats you quote are really quite meaningless.

Either way, I am not trying to suggest that there is a correlation between atheism and crime nor religion and crime nor Chritianity and Crime nor Christendom and crime. The reason why I use terms like "atheistic utopia" is because it is an errant atheist belief that if there were no religion there would be less war and far less crime. I am being a little controversial to encourage discussion by using such terms, just as you are by using terms like "fundamentalists". However, most athiestic philosophy surrounds the concept of achieving self actualisation, which if simultaneous to others achieving the same plain would indeed lead to utopia on earth. Quote John Lennon Imagine.

I trying to defend crime committed in the name of religion. However, my thread is about Christianity and not Christendom and organised religions.

2. I'm not arrogant. Not believing does not make me arrogant at all. Whether you accept that fact or not doesn't matter. I'll stay an atheist, without the arrogance you speak of.

I didn't imagine my thread would convert any atheists. However, others who are undecided should view both sides of the argument. This forum has a plethara of atheist based threads. I am encouraging

3. Hitler believed in the Christian god. He is a believer. That's like saying Middle Eastern terrorists are real Muslims, yet, Hitler isn't a real Catholic. I'm not even going to debate whether or not these leaders were religious because it's a waste of time. Believers will find any way to convince themselves that these people weren't religious.

I have read his autobiography (Mein Kampf) and unless you know him better than himself, then I have to disagree with you here. There is also a difference between professors and believers.

Again, I do not defend the religious majority. I probably share similar views about them as you do. My thread is about true Christian beliefs as espoused in the Bible versus atheism.

4. Most atheists are not ignorant of the Christian god. I was raised Baptist. Rejecting the concept of god doesn't mean you know nothing about it. You're probably one of those people who think somebody who reads the bible will automatically believe it no matter what.

I have friends who have read and studied the whole Bible in their personal quest for the truth and simply don't believe. And I respect that. Just because someone has the badge of Baptist, or whatever, doesn't mean they know about the Christian God. In my life experience most athiests are not knowledgable about the Bible. In fact it is their disbelief which has caused them not to seek the Bible.

5. Goodness is not tied to religion. Don't try to define atheism for me. I believe I'm more qualified to discuss it than you. You keep trying to define an "atheistic utopia" but it's apparent you know nothing about atheism at all. Bad and sin aren't the same thing. Bad means something wrong. Sin, according to religion, is an "abomination to god". To say that atheists think nothing is wrong and everything is "not good nor bad" and just "natural" is laughable.

I don't pretend to know all about atheism, and I don't pretend to know all about Christianity. In reality I probably only know a small amount about each. However, I would contend that I am better read on the subject than most. I don't think a personal attack about my intellect or knowledge will serve either of our purposes. If you like I can post my readings and studies if that would help.

All the best.
3. In Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

Speech at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

4. I've come to the conclusion that you think whoever doesn't believe doesn't understand it or the bible. That couldn't be further from the truth. You want to know how people become nonbelievers? Simple. Take the bible, read it from cover to cover and see if you don't question it after that. If you can honestly say you have read the whole bible and didn't find it disturbing at all, you won't understand why people become atheists. Most nonbelievers no religious scriptures more than believers.

5. Then you wasted a whole bunch of time typing nonsense. You tried to define atheists and what they think, but withdrew your statements when you were called out on it. It makes no sense to try to prove somebody wrong with statements that are incorrect, yet, you try to pass them off as if they aren't
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,620,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter View Post
"I don't really care": The adult's way of saying "NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEEEEEEEEEAAAAR YOUUUU"
No, it's my way of saying that it has no philosophical relevance.
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