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I will respond to some comments within the thread:
Funny how the nations with lowest crimes are also the ones with the highest numbers of atheists. The Scandinavian countries, Japan, and other secular countries have shown less crime rates than religious nations. Therefore, you're wrong.
Actually, the countries with the lowest crime rates are the ones where the state and religion have merged. Many of the Islamic and Central Asian countries have extremely low crime rates. However, I don't support their political or belief systems in any way - in fact I am strongly opposed. But that wasn't my point here. I was simply reflecting on recent world events and Biblical prophecy and the connection between the two. Just a few other points:
There is no such thing as a Christian country.
There are also countries that have high numbers of professing Christians who aren't true believers.
Crime is a function of sin, however, not all sins are crimes.
Christians are far from perfect and they can do the wrong thing.
Crime is a function of law: not all laws are good.
Are you suggesting that Christianity is the root cause of crime? That would indeed by an unusual perspective. And please don't come back with atrocities committed by apostate Churches, as I am talking about true Christians in the Biblical sense, not organized religion.
We are not arrogant like you try to put us. We don't believe that a all-powerful being created us "in his image". We're not the ones who put humans on such a high level of importance. Christians also make up the majority of prisoners. Once again, you fail.
Actually atheism is the ultimate arrogance because it places self at the pinnacle with no higher authority. I would also like to see your stats on Christian prisoners. Yes, there would be some that committed crimes and were incarcerated, others who became Christians whilst in jail and a large number who call themselves Christians simply by connection with family or a Church, however, they are likely to be professors rather than believers. Stalin was a Georgian Orthodox Christian. Hitler was a Roman Catholic. Mao followed Chinese folk religion. I don't know about Pol Pot's beliefs.
Stalin was Orthodox by his childhood baptism, however, the atrocities he committed were not in the name of Orthodoxy or Christianity. It was his atheistic utalitarianism that lead to his atrocities.
Hitler was certainly not a Roman Catholic. Also, don't assume that professing Roman Catholics are all Christians. He did treatise with the RC Church at one point for political reasons. In his early years he was actually an occultist, as were many of his Generals and mentors (read Mein Kampf). He even denounced that by 1941. Hitler is an archetype atheist, a true diciple of Nietzsche. Do you think that Hitler was promoting the concept of the "master race", annihilation of the Jews and social/economic domination for the purpose of spreading Christianity? That is a little insane.
Mao was a self confessed atheist - he clearly states that in his Red Book.
I am not saying all atheists are lunatics like the above. However, they are the logical products of extreme atheism. Most atheists are basically law abiding citizens who simply don't believe the possibility of a God. Most atheists are also ignorant of the Christian God because they haven't studied the Bible. Despite this, most atheists have very defined views about the Christian God even though they know nothing about him.
Just because you silence religion, that doesn't make you an atheist. Hitler said numerous times that killing Jews was doing "God's Work.".
Hitler saw the Jews as an inferior race, a view he formed through belief in the superior self - a Nietzsche philosophy. He unified an entire nation and used any means possible including vague references to "God". He certainly was not eliminating the Jews as a product of his Christianity.
And there have been wars started for religious reasons. Look at the Crusades. There has also been unnecessary killing committed in the name of Christianity. The Salem Witch Trials, for example.
The Crusades started over 1000 years ago and were the product of the merge between religion and state, and political/economic objectives of those states. The objectives of the Crusades had nothing to do with Christian values. Do you think I could make you beleive that the Lord Jesus Christ is your personal saviour by conquering you at war? Of course not. It can only come through your faith.
I agree there has been unnecessary killing in the name of Christianity for two reasons:
Not all persons who profess to be Christians are. For example in Northern Ireland there were true Christians praying for peace on both sides whilst professing Christians were practising their disbelief.
Sometimes Christians do the wrong thing.
This is just reitterating previous statements. Just know this..
My nature is good (without belief in god).
Sin is a concept in religion, so that's irrelevant to me.
Is your nature truly good? Isn't goodness a religious concept? Atheism is based on belief of only the natural and observable. Therefore, isn't all of what we see in the world just a product of evolution and neither good nor bad, it just is?
Do you see the problem with your 2nd point? First point says that your nature is good, but the 2nd says that sin is a religious concept and is irrelevant. Logic dictates that goodness and sin are either both irrevelant to your atheistic utopia, or they are both central. You must have a belief system of some sort to determine what is 'good' and by extension of that same logic you must have a concept for 'bad', which is what the Bible describes as sin.
....someone tries to convince me that religion is the answer by pointing out that I'm evil, helpless and completely incapable of managing my life without a higher power I don't think they're going to make a believer out of me.
I am not trying to convince you about religion. In fact religion is likely to steer you further from the truth. My point is not about 'managing your life', it is about being saved and gaining eternal life. You can take it or leave it, my job is simply to tell you about it.
1. Actually, I posted a link that backed up my statement about nonreligious nations. I suggest you take a look at it.
2. I'm not arrogant. Not believing does not make me arrogant at all. Whether you accept that fact or not doesn't matter. I'll stay an atheist, without the arrogance you speak of.
3. Hitler believed in the Christian god. He was a believer. That's like saying Middle Eastern terrorists are real Muslims, yet, Hitler isn't a real Catholic. I'm not even going to debate whether or not these leaders were religious because it's a waste of time. Believers will find any way to convince themselves that these people weren't religious.
4. Most atheists are not ignorant of the Christian god. I was raised Baptist. Rejecting the concept of god doesn't mean you know nothing about it. You're probably one of those people who think somebody who reads the bible will automatically believe it no matter what.
5. Goodness is not tied to religion. Don't try to define atheism for me. I believe I'm more qualified to discuss it than you. You keep trying to define an "atheistic utopia" but it's apparent you know nothing about atheism at all. Bad and sin aren't the same thing. Bad means something wrong. Sin, according to religion, is an "abomination to god". To say that atheists think nothing is wrong and everything is "not good nor bad" and just "natural" is laughable.
You clearly have no idea what you are even talking about.
3. Hitler believed in the Christian god. He is a believer. That's like saying Middle Eastern terrorists are real Muslims, yet, Hitler isn't a real Catholic. I'm not even going to debate whether or not these leaders were religious because it's a waste of time. Believers will find any way to convince themselves that these people weren't religious.
I agree. It's hard to argue against someone that can believe in something with absolutely no evidence of existance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq
4. Most atheists are not ignorant of the Christian god. I was raised Baptist. Rejecting the concept of god doesn't mean you know nothing about it. You're probably one of those people who think somebody who reads the bible will automatically believe it no matter what.
Ex-roman catholic here. I still find it intresting how christians, muslims, hindu, etc can reject all the other beliefs since there is no evidence for any of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq
5. Goodness is not tied to religion. Don't try to define atheism for me. I believe I'm more qualified to discuss it than you. You keep trying to define an "atheistic utopia" but it's apparent you know nothing about atheism at all. Bad and sin aren't the same thing. Bad means something wrong. Sin, according to religion, is an "abomination to god". To say that atheists think nothing is wrong and everything is "not good nor bad" and just "natural" is laughable.
You clearly have no idea what you are even talking about.
I'm an atheist. I go around and I rape and pillage the land on my boat, stopping at monestaries to steal all their valuables. Eventually I will take other atheists with me and we will populate a large part of an island and eventually become a nation.
Anyways, it's lawfully bad/wrong/illegal to do drugs, but it isnt a sin. It's 'bad' to swear, but that dosent make it a damn sin. (had to)
I'm old school conservative, which I guess makes me libertarian?
I'm neither neoconservative nor theoconservative. I'm the forgotten other part of the conservative party.
If you supported Ron Paul and you think drug use, gun ownership, and prostitution are human rights, I think you qualify. Most old school conservatives would be considered Libertarian.
To keep things on topic, I'd like to point out that even the religious can't define sin. You have hundred of different Christian sects that can't even agree on what's right and what's wrong. It's funny to watch.
1. Actually, I posted a link that backed up my statement about nonreligious nations. I suggest you take a look at it.
2. I'm not arrogant. Not believing does not make me arrogant at all. Whether you accept that fact or not doesn't matter. I'll stay an atheist, without the arrogance you speak of.
3. Hitler believed in the Christian god. He is a believer. That's like saying Middle Eastern terrorists are real Muslims, yet, Hitler isn't a real Catholic. I'm not even going to debate whether or not these leaders were religious because it's a waste of time. Believers will find any way to convince themselves that these people weren't religious.
4. Most atheists are not ignorant of the Christian god. I was raised Baptist. Rejecting the concept of god doesn't mean you know nothing about it. You're probably one of those people who think somebody who reads the bible will automatically believe it no matter what.
5. Goodness is not tied to religion. Don't try to define atheism for me. I believe I'm more qualified to discuss it than you. You keep trying to define an "atheistic utopia" but it's apparent you know nothing about atheism at all. Bad and sin aren't the same thing. Bad means something wrong. Sin, according to religion, is an "abomination to god". To say that atheists think nothing is wrong and everything is "not good nor bad" and just "natural" is laughable.
You clearly have no idea what you are even talking about.
1. That link was referring to democracies only.
3. "The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness" -Hitler
Hardly the words of true believer...probably the words of a dictator using religion to gain the trust of his people.
4. Atheists must believe in mind reading because I see this a lot.
5. We can agree to disagree on this one to a degree. There may or may not be right and wrong if there is no god, but what is for sure is that you cannot prove ethics rationally.
If you supported Ron Paul and you think drug use, gun ownership, and prostitution are human rights, I think you qualify. Most old school conservatives would be considered Libertarian.
Ron Paul also supports prayer in schools if the majority of the people in locality want that (Last time I checked he also wanted to overturn Roe Vs. Wade - but I digress). I think that sucks and its too bad because I agree with the main idea behind libertarianism. Sorry to interrupt - carry on with the topic...Wait - what's the topic?
1. Actually, I posted a link that backed up my statement about nonreligious nations. I suggest you take a look at it.
If you are talking about the "Journal of Religion and Society". That study is limited to 18 countries all of which are western or OECD/developed nations. The study is also subject to the bias of the beliefs of the Institute from which it originated. The study failed to mention the other 177 recognized countries at present. The stats you quote are really quite meaningless.
Either way, I am not trying to suggest that there is a correlation between atheism and crime nor religion and crime nor Chritianity and Crime nor Christendom and crime. The reason why I use terms like "atheistic utopia" is because it is an errant atheist belief that if there were no religion there would be less war and far less crime. I am being a little controversial to encourage discussion by using such terms, just as you are by using terms like "fundamentalists". However, most athiestic philosophy surrounds the concept of achieving self actualisation, which if simultaneous to others achieving the same plain would indeed lead to utopia on earth. Quote John Lennon Imagine.
I trying to defend crime committed in the name of religion. However, my thread is about Christianity and not Christendom and organised religions.
2. I'm not arrogant. Not believing does not make me arrogant at all. Whether you accept that fact or not doesn't matter. I'll stay an atheist, without the arrogance you speak of.
I didn't imagine my thread would convert any atheists. However, others who are undecided should view both sides of the argument. This forum has a plethara of atheist based threads. I am encouraging
3. Hitler believed in the Christian god. He is a believer. That's like saying Middle Eastern terrorists are real Muslims, yet, Hitler isn't a real Catholic. I'm not even going to debate whether or not these leaders were religious because it's a waste of time. Believers will find any way to convince themselves that these people weren't religious.
I have read his autobiography (Mein Kampf) and unless you know him better than himself, then I have to disagree with you here. There is also a difference between professors and believers.
Again, I do not defend the religious majority. I probably share similar views about them as you do. My thread is about true Christian beliefs as espoused in the Bible versus atheism.
4. Most atheists are not ignorant of the Christian god. I was raised Baptist. Rejecting the concept of god doesn't mean you know nothing about it. You're probably one of those people who think somebody who reads the bible will automatically believe it no matter what.
I have friends who have read and studied the whole Bible in their personal quest for the truth and simply don't believe. And I respect that. Just because someone has the badge of Baptist, or whatever, doesn't mean they know about the Christian God. In my life experience most athiests are not knowledgable about the Bible. In fact it is their disbelief which has caused them not to seek the Bible.
5. Goodness is not tied to religion. Don't try to define atheism for me. I believe I'm more qualified to discuss it than you. You keep trying to define an "atheistic utopia" but it's apparent you know nothing about atheism at all. Bad and sin aren't the same thing. Bad means something wrong. Sin, according to religion, is an "abomination to god". To say that atheists think nothing is wrong and everything is "not good nor bad" and just "natural" is laughable.
I don't pretend to know all about atheism, and I don't pretend to know all about Christianity. In reality I probably only know a small amount about each. However, I would contend that I am better read on the subject than most. I don't think a personal attack about my intellect or knowledge will serve either of our purposes. If you like I can post my readings and studies if that would help.
All the best.
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