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Unread 04-03-2008, 04:59 PM
 
39 posts, read 52,481 times
Reputation: 23
Default Athiest Intellectuals?

How clever we all are.

We can quote any number of atheist sources that deny God, that's not difficult.

Have you ever stopped to consider the state of the world:

§ Crime, corruption, famine, climatic chaos, overpopulation.
§ The 20th century was the most bloody in history, and respite in this century is very unlikely.
§ The acute apostasy within Christendom (i.e. professing Christians who aren't true believers, mighty Churches that elevate men above men, deity above God, formality above love and worldliness - e.g. have you ever seen a "fundamentalist" who outwardly puts issues like abortion ahead of the message of salvation?)
§ Booming growth in non-Christian religion (including, sadly, large sections of the professing Church)
§ Conflict in the Middle East
§ The re-birth of Israel
§ The unstoppable growth of the occult (how many people read their “stars” in a newspaper or magazine, but refuse to read the Bible – because of course through science and intellectualization you know that there can’t be a God)

Christian’s who believe that the Bible is God’s word and study it as the truth, have known that all these things would come to pass. Even as early as the 1st or 2nd Century. Indeed, much of this is recorded in Old Testament prophecy going back much further.

Atheism implies that the self is the highest authority. If an individual’s true nature was good then we would be living in an atheistic paradise. Sadly, our nature is evil and the world you see is the result of that. If you don’t believe that, then just look outside, read a newspaper or watch any news broadcast.

The atheist says: “An atheist never goes to war to justify their disbelief. However, great wars have been fought in the name of Christianity”.

To start with, just because someone calls themself a Christian doesn’t necessarily mean that they are. If you look at all the major conflicts in the last 400 years they have been fought for many reasons such as economic, power and control. Christians don’t fight wars to convert people by force – that is a complete contradiction.

Lets examine the 20th century – Stalin: atheist (20 million dead), Hitler: atheist (29 million dead directly including 5 million Jews, and 55 million indirectly), Mao: atheist (40 million dead), Pol Pot: atheist (1.7 million dead)……and the list goes on.

Friedrich Nietzsche must be so proud. All of these men are true examples of the evolution of the self as the highest authority.

Whether you choose to believe it or not these are the facts:
§ Our nature is evil.
§ We can not remove sin from our lives.
§ We can not save ourselves.

The answer: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
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Unread 04-03-2008, 05:24 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,152 posts, read 5,242,950 times
Reputation: 1921
"How clever we all are.

We can quote any number of atheist sources that deny God, that's not difficult.

Have you ever stopped to consider the state of the world:

§ Crime, corruption, famine, climatic chaos, overpopulation.
§ The 20th century was the most bloody in history, and respite in this century is very unlikely.
§ The acute apostasy within Christendom (i.e. professing Christians who aren't true believers, mighty Churches that elevate men above men, deity above God, formality above love and worldliness - e.g. have you ever seen a "fundamentalist" who outwardly puts issues like abortion ahead of the message of salvation?)
§ Booming growth in non-Christian religion (including, sadly, large sections of the professing Church)
§ Conflict in the Middle East
§ The re-birth of Israel
§ The unstoppable growth of the occult (how many people read their “stars” in a newspaper or magazine, but refuse to read the Bible – because of course through science and intellectualization you know that there can’t be a God)"

Funny how the nations with lowest crimes are also the ones with the highest numbers of atheists. The Scandinavian countries, Japan, and other secular countries have shown less crime rates than religious nations. Therefore, you're wrong.

"Christian’s who believe that the Bible is God’s word and study it as the truth, have known that all these things would come to pass. Even as early as the 1st or 2nd Century. Indeed, much of this is recorded in Old Testament prophecy going back much further.

Atheism implies that the self is the highest authority. If an individual’s true nature was good then we would be living in an atheistic paradise. Sadly, our nature is evil and the world you see is the result of that. If you don’t believe that, then just look outside, read a newspaper or watch any news broadcast."

We are not arrogant like you try to put us. We don't believe that a all-powerful being created us "in his image". We're not the ones who put humans on such a high level of importance. Christians also make up the majority of prisoners. Once again, you fail.

"The atheist says: “An atheist never goes to war to justify their disbelief. However, great wars have been fought in the name of Christianity”.

To start with, just because someone calls themself a Christian doesn’t necessarily mean that they are. If you look at all the major conflicts in the last 400 years they have been fought for many reasons such as economic, power and control. Christians don’t fight wars to convert people by force – that is a complete contradiction.

Lets examine the 20th century – Stalin: atheist (20 million dead), Hitler: atheist (29 million dead directly including 5 million Jews, and 55 million indirectly), Mao: atheist (40 million dead), Pol Pot: atheist (1.7 million dead)……and the list goes on."

Stalin was a Georgian Orthodox Christian. Hitler was a Roman Catholic. Mao followed Chinese folk religion. I don't know about Pol Pot's beliefs.

Just because you silence religion, that doesn't make you an atheist. Hitler said numerous times that killing Jews was doing "God's Work.".

And there have been wars started for religious reasons. Look at the Crusades. There has also been unnecessary killing committed in the name of Christianity. The Salem Witch Trials, for example.

"Friedrich Nietzsche must be so proud. All of these men are true examples of the evolution of the self as the highest authority.

Whether you choose to believe it or not these are the facts:
§ Our nature is evil.
§ We can not remove sin from our lives.
§ We can not save ourselves.

The answer: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

This is just reitterating previous statements. Just know this..
  • My nature is good (without belief in god).
  • Sin is a concept in religion, so that's irrelevant to me.
  • Learn how to swim. Can't have my life jacket.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 10,532,683 times
Reputation: 5282
moetman wrote:
Quote:
Whether you choose to believe it or not these are the facts:
§ Our nature is evil.
§ We can not remove sin from our lives.
§ We can not save ourselves.
First of all I don't believe that our nature is evil. In fact I believe that the overwhelming majority of human beings are basically good and their intentions are not to hurt anyone. Of course everyone has flaws but I've always felt that religion tends to paint the human race as evil, lost and floundering if they don't believe in God. If people were really that bad we wouldn't even be able to establish an orderly society, we'd be fighting each other like animals. If someone tries to convince me that religion is the answer by pointing out that I'm evil, helpless and completely incapable of managing my life without a higher power I don't think they're going to make a believer out of me.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 05:39 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,152 posts, read 5,242,950 times
Reputation: 1921
Indicators of a delusion
Delusional Disorder by A. Munro, 1999.
  1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
  2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
  3. Despite his profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
  4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
  5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
  6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
  7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely.
  8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his psyche.
  9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
  10. Individuals who know the patient will observe that his belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.
Do not treat people who oppose you like enemies. Treat them like...they have a disease called intolerance.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,431,417 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post

Funny how the nations with lowest crimes are also the ones with the highest numbers of atheists. The Scandinavian countries, Japan, and other secular countries have shown less crime rates than religious nations. Therefore, you're wrong.
Correlation or causation? Where's you're evidence that atheism = lower crime?
Doesn't Scandinavia have the highest suicide rate as well?
Btw, 95% of Japan is Shinto or Buddhist.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 05:57 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,152 posts, read 5,242,950 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Correlation or causation? Where's you're evidence that atheism = lower crime?
Doesn't Scandinavia have the highest suicide rate as well?
Btw, 95% of Japan is Shinto or Buddhist.
1. Buddhism is an atheistic religion. They follow the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama aka The Buddha. There is no deity in their religion. Gautama rejected belief in a creator himself.

2. Most people who follow the Shinto religion don't take the gods in it literally. It's like Greek mythology. Most of them only practice the rituals and live by what's in Shinto scriptures.

Japan IS a majority atheist religion.

And Lithuania, Belarus, and Russia have the highest suicide rates.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,431,417 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
moetman wrote:

First of all I don't believe that our nature is evil. In fact I believe that the overwhelming majority of human beings are basically good and their intentions are not to hurt anyone. Of course everyone has flaws but I've always felt that religion tends to paint the human race as evil, lost and floundering if they don't believe in God. If people were really that bad we wouldn't even be able to establish an orderly society, we'd be fighting each other like animals. If someone tries to convince me that religion is the answer by pointing out that I'm evil, helpless and completely incapable of managing my life without a higher power I don't think they're going to make a believer out of me.
I think the Christian idea that we are evil is really that everyone in their root essence is inclined to selfishness. I don't think this is unreasonable at all. As babies we simply demand and demand, and I believe acts of selflessness have to be taught.
As for being so evil that we can't even create an orderly society...that is called total depravity--a bizarre theological idea that few people believe.
I think most Christians believe that God loves everyone, and so works good through all regardless if they are Christian or not.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 06:00 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,152 posts, read 5,242,950 times
Reputation: 1921
Journal of Religion and Society (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html - broken link)
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Unread 04-03-2008, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,431,417 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
1. Buddhism is an atheistic religion. They follow the teaching of Siddhartha Gautama aka The Buddha. There is no deity in their religion. Gautama rejected belief in a creator himself.
Not true. Most Buddhists have nothing to do with God, but there is nothing in Buddhism that inherently denies the existence of God or gods. In fact, there are Buddhists who believe in a god, there are many Buddhists who simply claim to be indifferent to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
2. Most people who follow the Shinto religion don't take the gods in it literally. It's like Greek mythology. Most of them only practice the rituals and live by what's in Shinto scriptures.

Japan IS a majority atheist religion.
Isn't Shinto still a religion? You may be right about most Japanese not following the religion they claim to profess...but, doesn't that sound a lot like any Christian nation? Wait, there aren't any Christian nations. Oh, nations that have a large number of "Christians." Yes, why do you exclude the 95% of Shintos as religious or god-believing, but neglect to mention most of the people in the U.S. aren't religious either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
And Lithuania, Belarus, and Russia have the highest suicide rates.
Just keep rolling your eyes.
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Unread 04-03-2008, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,431,417 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
Journal of Religion and Society (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html - broken link)
So what you sent me was a link by a religious journal produced by a Roman Catholic college that says there may be link between religion, secularism/anti-evolutionism and social problems. Suddenly this becomes a conclusive study that atheism promotes morality and religion promotes societies problems.
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