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Old 01-04-2019, 10:50 AM
 
3,495 posts, read 2,380,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack View Post
Literally, Jesus died because of our sins...as in, for our sins. Except for their sin, he would not have died that way. And metaphorically, I can understand he woke up and flew away, leaving his body in the sands of time. And ready to be reborn as he wishes. Consciousness. A coming and a going.

Now let me examine a completely literal version of what you said. Jesus woke up and flew away? How did he do that? Did he flap his arms as a bird? Was it like a big hoover vacuum cleaner sucked him up? Did his body particularize like he was beamed up? Need I keep going on? I need answers.

I dunno.
I dunno.
I dunno.

I dunno what it is I believe exactly?

Then why would you think that?

Truth, that's the point. And no, I can't believe what you don't know what it is exactly that I am to believe.

Tell people what you know. And they will open or close their system...unfortunately, most people don't ask you or themselves any questions or whys.

And what is it that makes one iota which way you believe that? What reward? What penalty? You should be searching for truth. If you want to inherit the kingdom of God, you know the answer Jesus gave us.

Exercise your senses, what seems true to you? That is all the book is asking. Be honest. Ask Questions.
What can you believe or not believe? You really need to be honest with yourself, that way you don't lie to God. He doesn't expect us to know everything.

And I will admit, No, I cannot even imagine that really happening literally...other than Sinners killed Christ and he died because of their sins. He didn't die for sin, but in a way he did. For had they not sinned, he would not have died.

Yet because of Christ, I know God. And I do my best to turn away from sin. He forgave us for our sins. But still, sin remains, Christ forgives you, but you will still die a sinners death. Forgiven, but the penalty for sin remains.

What really matters? What are you looking for? What should we be seeking first? The kingdom of God?
well, you know how to do that...grow some good morals. What does it matter if I don't believe flesh and blood does not float [?] or what? and flew [like Superman?] where exactly? How could that happen? was it like booster rockets?

Don't give me magic.

It is not even reasonable. Am I saying it did not happen? No. I'm saying I don't believe it.
Does it seem reasonable to you?

Give yourself the details why you would believe that literally, I see no reason.

Just exercising the mind, Arac. Maybe I should have read further before posting this.

Point is, it doesn't really matter which way you think...we don't know. That's a fact.
God knows, tell him the truth of what you really think. That's what he is seeking. He is the God of truth. Let him reason with you.


But if you're just doing this for fun: Carry on

After posting such a long post...I'm going to retire for now, it wasn't necessary.
-
It's partly for fun for some and it's partly some thinking they are some type of arm chair experts/genius that are helping others but in all actuality their helping to feed their own egos. At least this helps to keeps them off the streets for a while.

 
Old 01-04-2019, 10:54 AM
 
11,328 posts, read 4,408,367 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
It's partly for fun for some and it's partly some thinking they are some type of arm chair experts/genius that are helping others but in all actuality their helping to feed their own egos. At least this helps to keeps them off the streets for a while.
hey grab

you kind stopped when we got past the open/closed system and where moving on to evaluating our claims to see if they were the same or not?
 
Old 01-04-2019, 10:59 AM
 
3,495 posts, read 2,380,367 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
hey grab

you kind stopped when we got past the open/closed system and where moving on to evaluating our claims to see if they were the same or not?
What is your claim? What is my claim?
 
Old 01-04-2019, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Missouri
375 posts, read 138,337 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
yup.

he did not die, wake up, and fly away.

why can I say this without knowing if the system is open or closed? or how based on me not knowing a whole (or is that Hole) lot?

because I offer a counter claim, one of many, that offers an explanation, mechanism, makes predictions, and, most importantly, is repeatable by any people anywhere? location or time.

claims that have mechanisms, make predictions, and are repeatable are more valid than those that don't.

period.
This is how you learn though, by doing.

I don't know anything about it. I just think an open or closed system is most likely the same system. It accepts some things and it doesn't accept other things. A system likely has switches to make it open...and switches to make it closed.

Some things it will receive and do well.
Some things it will receive and not do well.

What one system is not open for something? And not closed for something? answer that? I really dunno.

As for the Mr. Universe: An Open and Closed System? Yes it is.
Open for life full time, Closed for sin...coming soon.

And I don't know anything about it...but that's just how I think.
 
Old 01-04-2019, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Missouri
375 posts, read 138,337 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
It is. But a part of the universe is often not a property of the universe.
Still, no oneness.

What part of the universe is not a part of the universe?

What is the difference of a part of the universe and a property of the universe? I see none.

What part of the body is not a property of the body?
That leg I cut off? It now is a property of the universe going recycling...as is the rest of the body eventually.
 
Old 01-04-2019, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Germany
3,222 posts, read 576,921 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack View Post
Still, no oneness.

What part of the universe is not a part of the universe?

What is the difference of a part of the universe and a property of the universe? I see none.

What part of the body is not a property of the body?
That leg I cut off? It now is a property of the universe going recycling...as is the rest of the body eventually.
Once again, a headache. It is a part of the universe, but the universe does not have headaches.
 
Old 01-04-2019, 01:40 PM
 
11,328 posts, read 4,408,367 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack View Post
This is how you learn though, by doing.

I don't know anything about it. I just think an open or closed system is most likely the same system. It accepts some things and it doesn't accept other things. A system likely has switches to make it open...and switches to make it closed.

Some things it will receive and do well.
Some things it will receive and not do well.

What one system is not open for something? And not closed for something? answer that? I really dunno.

As for the Mr. Universe: An Open and Closed System? Yes it is.
Open for life full time, Closed for sin...coming soon.

And I don't know anything about it...but that's just how I think.
this is past me.

claims that offer mechanism, explanations, and make repeatable predictions are more valid than those that don't.

sin, deserves, open, closed, good, and bad got nothing to do with it.
 
Old 01-04-2019, 01:42 PM
 
11,328 posts, read 4,408,367 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralmack View Post
Still, no oneness.

What part of the universe is not a part of the universe?

What is the difference of a part of the universe and a property of the universe? I see none.

What part of the body is not a property of the body?
That leg I cut off? It now is a property of the universe going recycling...as is the rest of the body eventually.
one might say my big toe doesn't have a headache,
but i do.
 
Old 01-04-2019, 02:13 PM
 
38,066 posts, read 25,719,843 times
Reputation: 5899
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That is obvious. Of course NOT! That works in the context of separate things NOT in the context of ONENESS. It requires that you be capable of engaging in thought experiments. Imagine that you are one cell of your body and that you are sentient. You are trying to figure out what you are part of. You see all sort of different things and it is just too confusing because the real YOU that you are just one cell of is ALL the separate things you see. Do you see the situation from that perspective? The separate things perspective would enable your one sentient cell to analyze and understand the many parts and biota that comprise the real YOU so that is what you call useful. But it would NOT enable you to understand what the real YOU actually IS because each of the separate things is different. To place it in the context of the OP, we can answer the questions from inside God as they apply to the separate things but we cannot answer the questions about God because God is the ONENESS.
To summarize: The fallacy of composition ONLY applies to a universe of separate things which is the universe most atheists and carnally minded people see. But those of us who are spiritually minded see the universe as ONENESS and realize there are no separate things. They and we are all part of the living God who establishes our Reality. YMMV
 
Old 01-04-2019, 02:25 PM
 
3,419 posts, read 2,187,159 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The fallacy of composition is only a fallacy if you think there are SEPARATE things. IF we use the perspective of a ONENESS to everything, then there are no separate systems and any attributes of any elements in the system are attributes of the ONE system as a whole.

Going back to your original claim:

" IF we use the perspective of a ONENESS to everything, then there are no separate systems and any attributes of any elements in the system are attributes of the ONE system as a whole."
So let me try to use the "oneness" of the automobile, and see if I can make sense of what you are saying.
if there are no individual parts of a car, just a car as an atomic and indivisible whole, then we categorically cannot speak of "separate system" or components. This would mean that the example looks like this:



1) Automobiles simply are what they are, they are one, and cannot be broken into separate systems or components.
2) ???
3) Therefore, Automobiles are made primarily of rubber.


I'm still not able to get to step 3), because as least if I understand what you are saying, in a "ONENESS" perspective there are no separate components of an automobile, so there is no way a tire can have a property of its own. Or if a tire does have its own attributes, it is when it is taken as a "ONENESS" independent of( having not been assembled into) a car. Once it becomes part of a car it can have no attributes because it's the car's "ONENESS" now.


So am I misunderstanding this? Is there some other way to apply this oneness perspective and get the results one would expect were the fallacy of composition not to apply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That is obvious. Of course NOT! That works in the context of separate things NOT in the context of ONENESS. It requires that you be capable of engaging in thought experiments. Imagine that you are one cell of your body and that you are sentient. You are trying to figure out what you are part of. You see all sort of different things and it is just too confusing because the real YOU that you are just one cell of is ALL the separate things you see. Do you see the situation from that perspective? The separate things perspective would enable your one sentient cell to analyze and understand the many parts and biota that comprise the real YOU so that is what you call useful. But it would NOT enable you to understand what the real YOU actually IS because each of the separate things is different.

Now I am really confused! Here you appear to be contradicting your initial assertion! You say that because we cannot view a system of which we are parts externally as a whole, a "ONENESS" if you will, we cannot assume that what we know about individual parts applies in any way to the whole.



But your initial premise was that we can assume, at least given some perspective or within some limitation, that everything we know about an individual part of a system applies to the entire system. This is what it means for the fallacy of composition to be incorrect!



You appear to have quite vigorously argued here that your initial premise is wrong!



Maybe you can spell out under what conditions or caveats you believe the fallacy of composition not to hold true, because once again you are not having much luck with analogies... I can tell you don't want to, but seriously, it would clean up your thinking or argument if you could either work in the context of the car example or explain clearly why it is inapplicable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
To place it in the context of the OP, we can answer the questions from inside God as they apply to the separate things but we cannot answer the questions about God because God is the ONENESS.

So if I understand you right only by viewing God from outside God ( an impossibility according to your theology) can one say anything meaningful about God? It seems like then God is, to use a circuits term, a "don't care". That is, from our perspective questions about God are unanswerable, and irrelevant, so we can ignore it and get on with life without trying to invent a thing that we cannot know the truth of...


-NoCapo
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