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Old 01-16-2019, 05:46 PM
 
4,820 posts, read 2,361,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
We don't know and as a dear now passed on friend who was an atheist used to say to me:
No one has ever come back to tell me anything.
Not tell him personally, but we do have the account about Jesus' dead friend at John 11:11-14.
Jesus taught his followers that his dead friend was in a sleep-like state before Jesus resurrected his friend.
The resurrected person did Not have anything to say or report because he was unconscious while dead.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach un-conscious sleep in death:
-> Psalm 6:5; Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Psalm 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

 
Old 01-16-2019, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,429 posts, read 4,406,762 times
Reputation: 6658
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Spiders are pretty cool. No doubt about it, and I am one of those that also has a bit of an instinctive ick-reaction to spiders. I did not know that they could dive as well.

But conscious? I hate to start down a path that resulted in a different thread being heavily edited, but we seem to be talking about a definition. Consciousness seems to be on a spectrum.
Yes insects exhibit consciousness no differently than humans do. In fact insects have been able to survive on this earth for millions of years due to the their conscious collaboration as a team. Modern humans have only been around for 200,000 years and can't even get it right with respect to nurturing the earth and allowing other animals species to live in peace vs. driving them to extinction.

There are ants in Australia called leaf cutter ants that spend all day cutting blades of grass to feed a fungus deep in the ground within their colonies. It's quite a production.

Leafcutter ant
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Plants aren’t, people are, and most biological things, including spiders are somewherein the middle.
Plants also exhibit consciousness. I encourage you to read up on how they communicate, how they protect each other. There's a very interesting book called the Hidden Life of Trees. It's a fascinating read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Is there a jump at some point where instinct and stimulus response jump to self-awareness? It seems to me that there may be, although I admit I am completely uneducated in this area.
I think the old chalk it up to instinct thing is outdated.

I encourage you to watch a documentary titled MicroCosmos. No way you can watch that and not see that insects have consciousness...just like the leaf cutter ants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Returning to the main conversational thread though, I don’t think that a person with only a brain stem, that exhibits no signs of conscious thought, can be considered conscious. It seems to take moreof a brain than that.
Well that story was published in the news based on who knows what. There are varying degrees of the genetic mishap known as holoprosencephaly. The fact that the child has limited cognitive and conscious functions suggests that the consciousness resides in the brain.
 
Old 01-16-2019, 06:57 PM
 
11,328 posts, read 4,408,367 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
There’s even debate out there on whether plants are conscious or not.
well, if animals are conscious and some people think plants are conscious. and life interacts with the life around it. then, like neurons interact with each other, then these nodes of consciousness, like neurons, may form a conscious biosphere?

at the very least, if we claim "life" has consciousness then the system of life we are surrounded in should be something like like it, if not more so?

its really is the most valid claim. if we assume all life is conscious that is? again, its shows atheist and theist have some valid points. The middle of the roader's need to form up and tell the anti-god guys and the my-god-only guys to sit down or go swim to an island.
 
Old 01-17-2019, 02:09 AM
 
3,589 posts, read 2,589,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No, he cannot. The best evidence extant is that consciousness is a manifestation of the entire state of the brain. Anyone familiar with state machines, as Harry professes to be as an occupation, realizes that the state responsible for a given outcome can NOT be the locus of the resultant outcome
Unless the state is itself an input into the system and the system has no fixed state but is constant flux due to the constant change in that input. There is simply nothing at all precluding the things you claim are precluded. Especially since the only basis for precluding them appears to be to fit the narrative of consciousness you want to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
We only have access to one consciousness- our own. All Consciousness that is not our own is inferred from behavior. Consciousness is immaterial. I've always gotten it. I don't believe the mind is just confined to our skull.
Declaring something immaterial by assertion does not mean it is. We simply do not have a full explanation for it at this time. That is almost all we can say with any certainty. The other thing we can say with any certainty is that everything we so far _do_ know about consciousness is rooted in the material and specifically the brain and the energy travelling around it. If there is any immaterial or "other" aspect to it - we simply have no evidence for it yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
Nothing but deflections from you. You refuse to answer a basic simple question. What drug did you take? Can you answer that question without deflecting?
You see the narrative of "deflection" here is pointed in the wrong direction because the simple fact is that is the first time you have _directly_ asked me that question. So you are taking your _not_ having asked that question before as me deflecting from it. Which is a remarkably dishonest move from you.

Up until now you have been asking me what _experiences_ I have had and I was answering that. Now you are calling "deflection" my having answered what you asked me - but not having answered what you actually _wanted_ to ask me. Which is again as I said remarkably dishonest and very disingenuous as a move from you.

You made the mistake of asking what drug I took that gave experiences _like_ a drug you took. And I answered that question by telling you that was not what I said. That too is not a deflection - it was a direct statement of fact.

But yes - I have taken all the drugs you have listed and many you have not. I would not for legal reasons list them _all_ here. But suffice to say you have not claimed to have taken a drug yet on this thread which I have not also taken. I have taken everything you have mentioned so far. At least to the point that we have not discussed different forms of drugs of the same name to see if we took identical versions of it in identical forms in identical ways. But I reckon that level of minutia would help no one here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
You seem to not comprehend the fact that we can only remember what we can reconstruct.
There is a difference between not comprehending X and offering an answer that does not contain X and therefore displays neither a comprehension of X nor a lack of comprehension of X. I did the latter and you are falsely painting this as the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
Can you see, remember and explain in detail to me hyperbolic object with text? If you can't that means I wouldn't be able to describe them to you in detail where you would understand and that is why I have been repeating over and over again without actually experiencing it you would have no clue.
And what I keep telling you is that you have not referred to any experience yet which does not seem to match ones I myself have also had. If there was some suspicion that you had experiences I have not yet had - that would be interesting. But so far you have not.

So the issue remains what it has been since my first reply to you. Which is not the description of the experience but the fact that whatever the experiences felt like to you - there is not a jot of evidence anywhere to suggest that it actually was that. You can feel like you left your body - but there is no reason to think you did. You can feel like you went to another dimension - but there is no reason to think you did.

That is was and continues to be all I have really been saying.
 
Old 01-17-2019, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,222 posts, read 576,921 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z View Post
Ahh but they are still conscious, that is the argument. You can have the majority of your brain missing and still be conscious even if it's just responding to stimuli you are aware and conscious. I doubt you will find an individual case of a rare genetic disorder where the family releases medical information for public consumption.

What the graph from your paper of Godwin, Barry, and Marois shows is hot colors depict stronger connections for the aware which are mainly concentrated in the middle of the brain/cortex, not in the brain stem region. The paper you provided assess pairwise functional connectivity across 264 nodes of the cerebral cortex, it says nothing about the brain stem region. So your paper clearly states for evidence of awareness in the cerebral cortex yet we know there is evidence that a human can be conscious without a cerebral cortex.
Yes, a limited consciousness. Even a fly has limited aspects of consciousness. The problem for you is will any of these poor children understand optical illusions for what they are, will they know that they know something, will they understand the concept of others being conscious?
 
Old 01-17-2019, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,222 posts, read 576,921 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Don't underestimate the consciousness of a spider.

It takes consciousness to build something elaborate...such as their webs.

It takes consciousness to build an underwater eating chamber full of oxygen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rlt9yAhqTw
Do they require consciousness to build a web? They may simply be following evolved instinctive rules. A better example would be those spiders that actively hunt web building spiders, because they have to calculate the best route to get their prey without being caught themselves.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDtlvZGmHYk

And this is Diesel's problem, confusing aspects of consciousness with consciousness itself.
 
Old 01-17-2019, 07:56 AM
 
305 posts, read 332,721 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Yes, a limited consciousness. Even a fly has limited aspects of consciousness. The problem for you is will any of these poor children understand optical illusions for what they are, will they know that they know something, will they understand the concept of others being conscious?
When examined after such stabilization has taken place, and in the setting of the home environment upon which these medically fragile children are crucially dependent, they give proof
of being not only awake, but of the kind of responsiveness to their surroundings that qualifies as conscious by the criteria of ordinary neurological examination. The report by Shewmon and colleagues is the only published account based upon an assessment of the capacities of children with hydranencephaly under near optimal conditions, and the authors found that each of the four children they assessed was conscious.

Shewmon, D.A., Holmes, G.L. & Byrne, P.A. (1999). Consciousness in congenitally decorticate children: developmental vegetative state as self-fulfilling prophecy. Developmental Medicine and
Child Neurology 41: 364–374.
 
Old 01-17-2019, 08:03 AM
 
305 posts, read 332,721 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
well, if animals are conscious and some people think plants are conscious. and life interacts with the life around it. then, like neurons interact with each other, then these nodes of consciousness, like neurons, may form a conscious biosphere?

at the very least, if we claim "life" has consciousness then the system of life we are surrounded in should be something like like it, if not more so?

its really is the most valid claim. if we assume all life is conscious that is? again, its shows atheist and theist have some valid points. The middle of the roader's need to form up and tell the anti-god guys and the my-god-only guys to sit down or go swim to an island.
It's possible that all life is somewhat conscious through vibrations. Here is a good article explaining the theory. Something I have experienced first hand.

https://www.universal-sci.com/headli...things-vibrate
 
Old 01-17-2019, 08:39 AM
 
305 posts, read 332,721 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Declaring something immaterial by assertion does not mean it is. We simply do not have a full explanation for it at this time. That is almost all we can say with any certainty. The other thing we can say with any certainty is that everything we so far _do_ know about consciousness is rooted in the material and specifically the brain and the energy travelling around it. If there is any immaterial or "other" aspect to it - we simply have no evidence for it yet.
You asked for my definition and I gave it to you. Not sure why you keep claiming no evidence from my statements when I have never claimed any evidence. I have stated very clearly from the beginning that know one knows anything including you.


Quote:
Up until now you have been asking me what _experiences_ I have had and I was answering that. Now you are calling "deflection" my having answered what you asked me - but not having answered what you actually _wanted_ to ask me. Which is again as I said remarkably dishonest and very disingenuous as a move from you.
I asked you which drug and you refuse to tell me. How is that me being dishonest? You are the one not answering the questions LMAO
Quote:
You made the mistake of asking what drug I took that gave experiences _like_ a drug you took. And I answered that question by telling you that was not what I said. That too is not a deflection - it was a direct statement of fact.
Then what did you say? This is the direct quote from you when I asked you that question. "I have explored the altering of consciousness in many ways large and small. Through meditation - drugs - sensory deprivations - and more"

Quote:
But yes - I have taken all the drugs you have listed and many you have not. I would not for legal reasons list them _all_ here. But suffice to say you have not claimed to have taken a drug yet on this thread which I have not also taken. I have taken everything you have mentioned so far. At least to the point that we have not discussed different forms of drugs of the same name to see if we took identical versions of it in identical forms in identical ways. But I reckon that level of minutia would help no one here.
Are you afraid the police are going to come knock on your door because you list some drugs on a forum? LOL Ok so if you have taken everything I have mentioned which by the way is only 2 things which level did you get to? How long did the experience last? Can you at least answer that directly?

Quote:
There is a difference between not comprehending X and offering an answer that does not contain X and therefore displays neither a comprehension of X nor a lack of comprehension of X. I did the latter and you are falsely painting this as the former.
Jibberish

Quote:
And what I keep telling you is that you have not referred to any experience yet which does not seem to match ones I myself have also had. If there was some suspicion that you had experiences I have not yet had - that would be interesting. But so far you have not.
Since you refuse to be specific in what you took to induce these experiences I don't know if you had similar experiences or not.

Quote:
So the issue remains what it has been since my first reply to you. Which is not the description of the experience but the fact that whatever the experiences felt like to you - there is not a jot of evidence anywhere to suggest that it actually was that. You can feel like you left your body - but there is no reason to think you did. You can feel like you went to another dimension - but there is no reason to think you did.

That is was and continues to be all I have really been saying.
Again, it is possible that it was just all in the mind, but no one can say definitively what is going on in that circumstance and you have no evidence.

Last edited by Diesel350z; 01-17-2019 at 08:57 AM..
 
Old 01-17-2019, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,222 posts, read 576,921 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Yes insects exhibit consciousness no differently than humans do. In fact insects have been able to survive on this earth for millions of years due to the their conscious collaboration as a team. Modern humans have only been around for 200,000 years and can't even get it right with respect to nurturing the earth and allowing other animals species to live in peace vs. driving them to extinction.

There are ants in Australia called leaf cutter ants that spend all day cutting blades of grass to feed a fungus deep in the ground within their colonies. It's quite a production.

Leafcutter ant
Plants also exhibit consciousness. I encourage you to read up on how they communicate, how they protect each other. There's a very interesting book called the Hidden Life of Trees. It's a fascinating read.
I think the old chalk it up to instinct thing is outdated.

I encourage you to watch a documentary titled MicroCosmos. No way you can watch that and not see that insects have consciousness...just like the leaf cutter ants.
The traveling salesman problem asks "Given a list of cities and the distances between each pair of cities, what is the shortest possible route that visits each city and returns to the origin city"? This can be solved with computers by copying how ants leave a trail to a food source for other ants to follow. Conscious like behavior created without a conscious agent. I am not so sure that what appears to be consciousness is not simply instinct.
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