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Old 11-10-2018, 10:57 PM
Status: "Snip snip snip. Delete delete delete. ;)" (set 23 hours ago)
 
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Originally Posted by JaxRhapsody View Post
I believe in reincarnation, that we spend an undetermined amount of "time" there, and we are sent back for some reason until the point where we live our last life on this plain and finally at last be our trueselves kn the other side.

I agree with this. Think of earth as a classroom. Everyone is a student learning at his or own pace, yet crossing paths with other "students" who help them learn what lessons they came to master. I think "Jesus" is the "grade" we attain right before "graduating" to eternal life. Whatever that means. If you read some of the missing books of the Bible, there are multiple heavens and strict hierarchies. Hebrews talks about Melchizedek, who "has no father, no mother, no lineage; his years have no beginning, his life no end. He is like the Son of God: he remains a priest for all time." (Hebrews 7:3) I think Melchizedek represents your eternal spirit. Melchizedek has no mother, father or lineage because he has shed his earth suit and gone on to the higher spirit realm. We have parents and lineage because we are currently subject to this earthly realm. If you have not yet attained your "Jesus" status, you have to come back for another lesson. I don't think you get infinite chances to attain this level, though. This is also why going from belief from unbelief is bad. I'm not certain, but it seems like once you've done that you've forfeited your chance. And maybe that means you're always stuck in this realm? I dunno. It would explain why there are so many evil-spirited people though. If you're trapped, you want others to stay in "hell" with you.

 
Old 11-11-2018, 07:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DorianRo View Post
Thoughts?
Is there a God?

Find your own answers by doing your own research - its a fruitless endeavor to get into arguments with those who believe there is no God because there is no evidence of their liking. and arguing with those who believe that believing in the existing of God is based on faith - and faith does not require evidence. And this faith is build on finding and identifying the signs of God.

Its a very personal journey and the final call is made by your heart.


Recycle or rebirth idea.
My logic says we not reborn thru a recycle process or any other way.

And its simply because the world population has been rapidly increasing - if all of us would reborn and reborn and reborn (7 times in Hindu theology) till our soul is merged into God then the world population shouldve been decreasing.

Matter of fact, world population shouldve been stayed at 1 person for about first 500 years of human history till that one person wouldve born and reborn 7 or however many times till eventually merging into God.
 
Old 11-11-2018, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Do not ignore the POE effect and use emojis when you are joking or you will get banned for solicitation.
 
Old 11-11-2018, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
I have heard a few people talk about meditation on this forum. Including one or two people who describe it so badly - and act so much unlike people who engage deeply in mediation - that I genuinely do not believe they have ever actually meditated even once ever.
Exactly what makes a person's description of their experience with mediation good or bad from your perspective?
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
They just claim to because of the intellectual Street Cred it thinks they give them.
Interesting claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
But I have yet to hear a single person on here describe a meditation experience I myself have no had many many times. And set not one of the experiences I have had - or heard describe - supports the nonsense metaphysics and supernatural claims people are so keen to tack on to it.
What exactly are you seeking to hear that would validate someone's meditation experience?
 
Old 11-11-2018, 01:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Find your own answers by doing your own research - its a fruitless endeavor to get into arguments with those who believe there is no God because there is no evidence of their liking.
I once asked a friend why his children eat no vegetables. He said there was no vegetables that they liked. So I asked which ones he had actually tried giving them. The answer was - none. He had simply assumed there was none they would like - so he never even tried.

You are working off the same lie. You like to pretend there is no evidence we like. But the reality is you have never actually presented any. The narrative we do not like it exists in your head alone - and is the justification you use to cop out of ever making the attempt.

In fact your general MO on the subject is not only to refuse to offer any evidence - but to try and pretend it is our job to tell you what the evidence is or should be. When you are the one making the claims.

So by all means speak for yourself - but when you speak vicariously on our behalf alas you tend to just end up fantasizing. Like you just did here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Exactly what makes a person's description of their experience with mediation good or bad from your perspective? Interesting claim. What exactly are you seeking to hear that would validate someone's meditation experience?
It is not about 100% validating it as no one here can do that. Short of taking a time machine and stalking a given person day in and day out - you will never know if they ever actually did it or not.

What it is about for me therefore is drawing on the wealth of experience I have of people who have meditated deeply and noticing trends in behavior among them. Some almost universal and constant.

And then when I notice a person claiming to meditate does not show _any_ of them - not just less of them or half of them but not _any_ - I have a healthy basis for suspecting they are not at all being honest with us.

One trend - to give but one example of 100s I could bore the forum with - with people who have experienced the kinds of ego dissolution and so forth that meditation involved is that of becoming less of an ego. Being less inclined to try to seem better or above anyone else - and less inclined to anger or take emotional personal offense at being disagreed with or questioned - and very very much less inclined to lash out with personal petty insults from the school yard and the like.

And I can certainly think of at least one person who claims to meditate deeply who is the exact opposite of that - and is in fact very quick to display ego and offense and get petty and personal and insulting and to posture their own high opinion of their own intellect and knowledge.

A second trend - is that such people when talking about mediation tend to get very detailed and excited about the topic. Talking about how to do it - where and when they do it - what they get out of it - why they do it. Almost analogous to stoners in how much they love talking about weed and how they use it and what it does to them and for them.

So again when someone comes in and keep dropping "meditation" as a word into conversation after conversation but almost invariably never talks about it in anything but the most extremely cursory references - it simply does not fit the trends.

The list goes on - at nauseating length. And as I said I would not suspect lies of someone who did not fit one trend or another. But when someone manages not only not to fit _any_ of them - while frequently and often extremely showing up as the exact opposite - my suspicions get extremely piqued. There are people who claim they do it and all I can say is I personally do not believe them. Not just a little - but I simply do not believe them _at all_.

YMMV of course - I am only speaking for me here.
 
Old 11-11-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
It is not about 100% validating it as no one here can do that. Short of taking a time machine and stalking a given person day in and day out - you will never know if they ever actually did it or not.
I see. Thanks for clarifying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
What it is about for me therefore is drawing on the wealth of experience I have of people who have meditated deeply and noticing trends in behavior among them. Some almost universal and constant.
Yes these trends are fairly obvious. I only know a few folks who practice meditation (one being a Buddhist Monk) and you can certainly see how their behavior is separate from the masses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
And then when I notice a person claiming to meditate does not show _any_ of them - not just less of them or half of them but not _any_ - I have a healthy basis for suspecting they are not at all being honest with us.
Maybe they are not performing it correctly? Or don't practice daily? Or they sit in what they believe is meditation, but never achieving the end result due to not knowing what that experience should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
One trend - to give but one example of 100s I could bore the forum with - with people who have experienced the kinds of ego dissolution and so forth that meditation involved is that of becoming less of an ego. Being less inclined to try to seem better or above anyone else - and less inclined to anger or take emotional personal offense at being disagreed with or questioned - and very very much less inclined to lash out with personal petty insults from the school yard and the like.
Interesting as I've also seen this in the people in this forum who claim to be religious. If religion is supposed to teach peace, love and compassion I certainly don't see it in the behaviors displayed 100's of times in this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
A second trend - is that such people when talking about mediation tend to get very detailed and excited about the topic. Talking about how to do it - where and when they do it - what they get out of it - why they do it. Almost analogous to stoners in how much they love talking about weed and how they use it and what it does to them and for them.
LOL that's funny!

It's not easy to describe how to meditate to others. In my case I had no clue but my curiosity keep me trying to figure it out. Mine was a process and a progression based on different techniques. What works for some did not work at all for me. It was a lot of trial and error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
And as I said I would not suspect lies of someone who did not fit one trend or another. But when someone manages not only not to fit _any_ of them - while frequently and often extremely showing up as the exact opposite - my suspicions get extremely piqued. There are people who claim they do it and all I can say is I personally do not believe them. Not just a little - but I simply do not believe them _at all_.
For me it's not a matter of not believing them. For example it could be a matter of variables that prevents them for being honest with themselves. Often times I have stated to some of the folks who don't behave very peacefully, lovingly or kindly, that perhaps they need to realize that their religion is not working for them and that they might consider pursing another path of spiritual development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
YMMV of course - I am only speaking for me here.
It does.
 
Old 11-11-2018, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
I see. Thanks for clarifying. Yes these trends are fairly obvious. I only know a few folks who practice meditation (one being a Buddhist Monk) and you can certainly see how their behavior is separate from the masses. Maybe they are not performing it correctly? Or don't practice daily? Or never they sit in what they think is meditation but not really ever achieving the end result.
That is a lot of "maybe" though outside the realm of the evidence at hand. So I can not comment. All I can comment on is what I see - which is the behavior of the people claiming to meditate - and what they do with that claim.

So on City Data for example when I see someone claiming to meditate who shows not few but _none_ of the personal, character and emotional trends I know of actual mediators - and then I simultaneously see them drop meditation into conversation only where it appears to buy them some credence for what otherwise is complete nonsense - then the most I an say openly and honestly is that _I personally_ strongly and completely doubt they ever actually meditated even once. Let alone to the depths they claim.

It is like if you sat beside someone in the pub and during conversation they tell you that while they were on the main street - the entire team of Avengers - not the actors but the actual avengers - suddenly burst out of a vortex said the world was going to end and disappeared again - then this person started arguing violently with the bar man over being short changed a few tiny coins - well you do not _know_ that he did not really see the Avengers. But his entire set of behaviors and motivations and priorities in that moment simply do not map even _remotely_ onto someone who actually had that experience. Such a person does not tend to quibble over a tiny coin. Now multiply that up from one encounter to 5+ years and you can understand why my doubts can be high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Interesting as I've also seen this in the people in this forum who claim to be religious. If religion is supposed to teach peace, love and compassion I certainly don't see it in the behaviors displayed 100's of times in this forum. LOL that's funny! It's not easy to describe to other how to meditate. In my case I had no clue but my curiosity keep me trying to figure it out. Mine was a process and a progression based on different techniques. What works for some did not work at all for me. It was a lot of trial and error.
I think it both is and is not easy to describe. Mainly because describing it is outside our normal realm of conversation by far. But with time and practice we can get to a point where describing it is actually very easy.

I - for example - decided out of the blue one day to put up a sign in the local University here in Maynooth in Ireland. My aim was to get students to come to my house once a week for guided meditation. And this worked. Unexpectedly however other people got the message too. I have had students therefore - but also recovering alcoholics and gamblers - people on training for anger issues - a priest and a trainee priest - a PTSD suffering cop - and quite a few other randomers. So over 5 or 6 years I have become quite adept at describing the processes and techniques that I am familiar with.

Sam Harris is also very good. I got a free copy of his "Waking up" app on Android where he does a daily guided meditation. There is something like 150 days of material there now I think and increasing all the time. He is very good at describing it. Makes it look very easy indeed.

I do my guided meditation for free - though some students keep insisting on paying me in weed. Which I rarely smoke any of. Like 5 times a year tops. Unfortunately there is a lot of charlatan ad woo merchants in the real world as well as City Data in the area of Meditation. So they sell "Courses" for not insignificant costs. Even in my area and all over Dublin. Usually promising all kinds of mystical outcomes - like communing with gods or with - a phrase I am hearing more and more recently and I think Jordan Peterson is to blame for it partly - "the global consciousness substrate".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
For me it's not a matter of not believing them. It's a matter of many variables that prevents them for being honest with themselves.
I think I know what you mean - and if I do then I can just say that for me I do not see it as such a useful distinction. Put another way - I understand the distinction you are making but it is not one that _functionally_ at least causes any material difference in how I regard them or treat them or how I confront bad ideas in the real world. Either way they appear to be lying - whether to themselves others or both - and are perpetuating complete nonsense off the back of that lie. Nonsense that _can_ be harmful or deranging. And that tends to be my primary concern over things like who a liar is actually lying to.

But I can understand people with different goals and incentives will find that distinction more useful. The obvious example being a psychiatrist who has such a person in "the chair". To treat such delusions it becomes a primary concern where the delusions are focused and on who. And treating someone who is lying to themselves - is going to take a different form to treating someone who is lying to others.
 
Old 11-11-2018, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
I - for example - decided out of the blue one day to put up a sign in the local University here in Maynooth in Ireland. My aim was to get students to come to my house once a week for guided meditation. And this worked. Unexpectedly however other people got the message too. I have had students therefore - but also recovering alcoholics and gamblers - people on training for anger issues - a priest and a trainee priest - a PTSD suffering cop - and quite a few other randomers. So over 5 or 6 years I have become quite adept at describing the processes and techniques that I am familiar with.
That is awesome! How did the PTSD cop respond? Poor fellow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Sam Harris is also very good. I got a free copy of his "Waking up" app on Android where he does a daily guided meditation. There is something like 150 days of material there now I think and increasing all the time. He is very good at describing it. Makes it look very easy indeed.
I like Sam and enjoy listening to his experiments with Ecstasy and meditation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
I do my guided meditation for free - though some students keep insisting on paying me in weed. Which I rarely smoke any of. Like 5 times a year tops.
That's nice of them to try and offer you something that they like. I wonder if the weed in Ireland is super potent as the strains in CA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Unfortunately there is a lot of charlatan ad woo merchants in the real world as well as City Data in the area of Meditation. So they sell "Courses" for not insignificant costs. Even in my area and all over Dublin. Usually promising all kinds of mystical outcomes - like communing with gods or with - a phrase I am hearing more and more recently and I think Jordan Peterson is to blame for it partly - "the global consciousness substrate".
Interesting. Is this a new movement in Ireland? To be honest it may not be ideal but it's better than the Church controlling/influencing as much as it does in Ireland. Perhaps this can be a segway into people abandoning religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
I think I know what you mean - and if I do then I can just say that for me I do not see it as such a useful distinction. Put another way - I understand the distinction you are making but it is not one that _functionally_ at least causes any material difference in how I regard them or treat them or how I confront bad ideas in the real world. Either way they appear to be lying - whether to themselves others or both - and are perpetuating complete nonsense off the back of that lie. Nonsense that _can_ be harmful or deranging. And that tends to be my primary concern over things like who a liar is actually lying to.
I just don't put much stock into other peoples subjective experiences unless they are trying to push it on me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
But I can understand people with different goals and incentives will find that distinction more useful. The obvious example being a psychiatrist who has such a person in "the chair". To treat such delusions it becomes a primary concern where the delusions are focused and on who. And treating someone who is lying to themselves - is going to take a different form to treating someone who is lying to others.
I despise people who lie, especially those who purposely do it to misguide others from facts. IMO that's a form of evil. What the Creationist's are doing is a good example. Most of what many religions do also falls into this when they teach lies about the physical world in which we live or what the afterlife will be.

Last edited by Matadora; 11-11-2018 at 03:40 PM..
 
Old 11-11-2018, 03:57 PM
 
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That is awesome! How did the PTSD cop respond? Poor fellow.
Quite well but I was slower and more cautious with him than with anyone else I have worked with. There are many conditions for which Mindfulness Meditation is useful. But some where it can potentially actually exacerbate the issue and make them worse. And PTSD has that potential after a truly traumatic event.

Which is why I have so little time for Charlatans only in it for the money who care little for _who_ their customers actually are.

I am still in regular contact with him - and in his worst moments I have even guided him in meditation over the phone when he was really in a bad place. Phone sex for the spirit if you like I have talked him down from some pretty extreme emotions on a couple of occasions. Thankfully not many and he is generally doing well these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
That's nice of them to try and offer you something that they like. I wonder if the weed in Ireland is super potent as the strains in CA?
Highly highly variable here. Depends on your source. I would love to see it legalized and regulated into a standardized product where you know what you are getting. But you can get some street stuff here that will mess you up. Or you can get wonderfully pure versions that are perfect to partake of. Thankfully the students I have interacted with tend to have good quality stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Interesting. Is this a new movement in Ireland? To be honest it may not be ideal but it's better than the Church controlling/influencing as much as it does in Ireland. Perhaps this can be a segway into people abandoning religion?
A fad more than anything I think. But we have also seen recent moves to introduce mindfulness meditation into early school curriculum here too. Which I am very much all for. I think much like PE (Physical Education) we should have a comprehensive and variable ME (Mental Education) on our curriculum. We are a long way for there yet - but more and more in a modern world I think actual education on maintaining your mental well being like we maintain our physical well being is far more important material for a curriculum than some of the pointless facts we have children learn off by rota. I am quite heavily involved politically in pushing for these things here.

It would be nice if Mindfulness was helping people abandon religion. But as I said the charlatans currently marketing it do so without any real regard for the customers - or any knowledge or care of the types of people for which Mindfulness can be positively the wrong thing to do. Thankfully such people who can be harmed by meditating are a minority - but I would much prefer the people profiting off it had some care for them.

Meanwhile many people here sell it as a kind of addendum to religion rather than a replacement for it. Telling people - just like claimed mediators do on this forum - that meditation is a way to commune with god for example. And when such people have truly profound meditation experiences - as I have had - they are likely to parse those experiences as validating whatever religion they are part of.

When you manage to divest yourself of the feeling you are the thinker of your thoughts for example - you suddenly feel like your consciousness permeates everything around you and that some external consciousness in turn permeates you. If you believe in a god or are vulnerable to that inclination - it is a powerful illusion that can validate that "faith" for you. Rather than realizing you are having an "Out of consciousness experience" kind of analogous in some ways to an out of body experience - and the consciousness you are observing is pretty likely to be just your own but you _feel_ external to it.
 
Old 11-11-2018, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Quite well but I was slower and more cautious with him than with anyone else I have worked with. There are many conditions for which Mindfulness Meditation is useful. But some where it can potentially actually exacerbate the issue and make them worse. And PTSD has that potential after a truly traumatic event.
Interesting I was not aware that people with PTSD can be triggered by mindful meditation?
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Which is why I have so little time for Charlatans only in it for the money who care little for _who_ their customers actually are.
Sadly there are always going to predators seeking out people who are searching.
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
I am still in regular contact with him - and in his worst moments I have even guided him in meditation over the phone when he was really in a bad place. Phone sex for the spirit if you like I have talked him down from some pretty extreme emotions on a couple of occasions. Thankfully not many and he is generally doing well these days.
Good for you! I feel for all people who work in jobs where they see traumatic events daily. I have a life long friend who is a fire captain and he would tell me the horrors that the first responder's went through emotionally from being exposed to this daily. They had special classes offered to them which were basically therapy sessions. A lot of people don't realize how seeing trauma on a daily basis breaks down the mind.
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Highly highly variable here. Depends on your source. I would love to see it legalized and regulated into a standardized product where you know what you are getting. But you can get some street stuff here that will mess you up. Or you can get wonderfully pure versions that are perfect to partake of. Thankfully the students I have interacted with tend to have good quality stuff.
I agree and seeing how it's evolved here in CA has truly demonstrated that regulating it and performing laboratory testing on the products is very important. Harborside Health Center/ Dispensary in Oakland and San Jose are trailblazers in this effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
A fad more than anything I think.
Is this a recent new fad?
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
But we have also seen recent moves to introduce mindfulness meditation into early school curriculum here too. Which I am very much all for. I think much like PE (Physical Education) we should have a comprehensive and variable ME (Mental Education) on our curriculum.
I agree! Once I learned how to meditate I realized that many of the issues we see in the US in our schools could be resolved if kids were taught how to meditate vs. jail or medication.
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
We are a long way for there yet - but more and more in a modern world I think actual education on maintaining your mental well being like we maintain our physical well being is far more important material for a curriculum than some of the pointless facts we have children learn off by rota. I am quite heavily involved politically in pushing for these things here.
This is outstanding on your part! I would not even know where to begin with getting mindful meditation introduced into school curriculum.
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Meanwhile many people here sell it as a kind of addendum to religion rather than a replacement for it. Telling people - just like claimed mediators do on this forum - that meditation is a way to commune with god for example. And when such people have truly profound meditation experiences - as I have had - they are likely to parse those experiences as validating whatever religion they are part of.
That's too bad that it's being instructed as a sort of addendum to religion. I hear you on the profound meditation experiences...while I've also experienced them I never attributed them to any type religious beliefs because I am not religion prone. From a very young age I was able to see that there was something not right about religion.
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
When you manage to divest yourself of the feeling you are the thinker of your thoughts for example - you suddenly feel like your consciousness permeates everything around you and that some external consciousness in turn permeates you. If you believe in a god or are vulnerable to that inclination - it is a powerful illusion that can validate that "faith" for you.
I posted some studies recently where neuroscience has confirmed the mechanisms by which our brains experience what some call a religious experience.
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Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Rather than realizing you are having an "Out of consciousness experience" kind of analogous in some ways to an out of body experience - and the consciousness you are observing is pretty likely to be just your own but you _feel_ external to it.
If people could learn how to induce lucid dreams they would understand what you just described.
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