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Old 11-20-2018, 04:05 PM
 
16,798 posts, read 17,932,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog


From an animal kingdom perspective, the scorpion is only doing what it does according to its own kind. Some animals are agressive, some are passive. Some animals even attack their own children, some are nurturing. Some animals will fight and kill each other. Some animals work together in groups.

Yet there is one thing I see in common here. No one looks at those actions and says, wow those creatures sure are immoral. Atheists want me to believe that we are nothing more than another creation, born out of time and chance. We are just another link in evolution, another branch on the giant tree of evolution. And yet if we did any of those things, we would be see as evil, grossly immoral and cruel. So the atheist tries to convince me that I am an animal because we share so many similarities with other species and they point to things like how dogs express real human emotions. We are animals because animals are like us.

I recently watched a documentary about illegal gambling in the US. It took a look into the dark world of dog fighting. In one scene, the trainers take what appears to be a gentle dog wagging his tail and place him in front of his mother. So messed up. They use some tactics to agitate the dog and suddenly they turn on each other. Killing machines going after their own family. So much for being human like. Man's best friend can be manipulated and programmed into something entirely different. Because animals don't view actions in terms of morality like we do. They don't weigh consequences even though we do have some fairly intelligent species out there.

You can't have it both ways. If we are animals then we should be acting like animals. Behaving according to our preprogrammed nature and instinct, not conflicted in areas of morality.

While we may be considered animals, we are higher thinking primates. Our brains have developed beyond food, sleep, procreate and watch out for the terrible lizard.
The animals we share the planet with are only able to think at a certain level. That’s why the scorpion stung the frog
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:13 PM
 
5,331 posts, read 2,033,764 times
Reputation: 1989
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Most here grew up in a western Culture where Christianity dominated to Morality for hundreds of years , were God gave Christians rules of morality and they gave the western nations morality ....... Other nations which did not have Christian rules may have different rules that man made up in their controls .....
So other nations developed morality without your God's help?

Some First Nations thought that serving dog to guests was a special honour while others thought it an insult? Which is more m9ral? Some tribes believed that that counting coup was more an act of bravery and honour then killing one's opponents on the battlefield, the Bible teaches it is alright to kill your opponents women and children even those not on a battlefield. Which is more moral? And I am aware of all the excuses given that the babies were going to grow up evil and hating the Hebrews, perhaps for murdering their mothers.

And why should any of us accept that your God is the one true God and that the other Gods are false? How moral is that?
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,351 posts, read 9,114,818 times
Reputation: 18674
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog


From an animal kingdom perspective, the scorpion is only doing what it does according to its own kind. Some animals are agressive, some are passive. Some animals even attack their own children, some are nurturing. Some animals will fight and kill each other. Some animals work together in groups.

Yet there is one thing I see in common here. No one looks at those actions and says, wow those creatures sure are immoral. Atheists want me to believe that we are nothing more than another creation, born out of time and chance. We are just another link in evolution, another branch on the giant tree of evolution. And yet if we did any of those things, we would be see as evil, grossly immoral and cruel. So the atheist tries to convince me that I am an animal because we share so many similarities with other species and they point to things like how dogs express real human emotions. We are animals because animals are like us.

I recently watched a documentary about illegal gambling in the US. It took a look into the dark world of dog fighting. In one scene, the trainers take what appears to be a gentle dog wagging his tail and place him in front of his mother. So messed up. They use some tactics to agitate the dog and suddenly they turn on each other. Killing machines going after their own family. So much for being human like. Man's best friend can be manipulated and programmed into something entirely different. Because animals don't view actions in terms of morality like we do. They don't weigh consequences even though we do have some fairly intelligent species out there.

You can't have it both ways. If we are animals then we should be acting like animals. Behaving according to our preprogrammed nature and instinct, not conflicted in areas of morality.
This post show yours limited way of thinking. You're one of these people who think that all things are either/or, good or evil.
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:20 PM
 
3,583 posts, read 1,312,145 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrician4you View Post
While we may be considered animals, we are higher thinking primates. Our brains have developed beyond food, sleep, procreate and watch out for the terrible lizard.
Why only us? It happened by Chance?

Quote:
The animals we share the planet with are only able to think at a certain level. That’s why the scorpion stung the frog
Seriously, what’s stopping the animals to start thinking on a higher level?
Some are here even before us.
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:25 PM
 
7,662 posts, read 4,562,048 times
Reputation: 8690
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Why only us? It happened by Chance?



Seriously, what’s stopping the animals to start thinking on a higher level?
Some are here even before us.
Their brains are what is stopping them. Perhaps over time, if we don't destroy our planet, the brains of some animals will evolve and they will begin thinking on a higher level.
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:35 PM
Status: "Schooling Fundie." (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,788 posts, read 12,295,197 times
Reputation: 10770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
Their brains are what is stopping them. Perhaps over time, if we don't destroy our planet, the brains of some animals will evolve and they will begin thinking on a higher level.
I don't think it's their brains as much as environmental factors and for some, the lack of opposable thumbs. Dolphins, whales, octupi, parrots, corvids, and of course our cousin primates, are all pretty darn bright. They are capable of problem solving, creating tools and demonstrate higher emotions like empathy.

In fact, the average monkey has more empathy than the average fundamentalist human.
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:50 PM
 
7,662 posts, read 4,562,048 times
Reputation: 8690
Quote:
Originally Posted by werit View Post
Curiously enough, the dolphins had long known of the impending demolition of Earth and had made many attempts to alert mankind to the danger. But most of their communications were misinterpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs, or whistle for titbits, so they eventually gave up and left the Earth by their own means - shortly before the Vogons arrived. The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double backwards somersault through a hoop, whilst whistling the ‘Star-Spangled Banner’. But, in fact, the message was this “So long and thanks for all the fish”.
And they are the second smartest species on the planet! Right behind white mice.
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Old 11-20-2018, 04:57 PM
 
5,331 posts, read 2,033,764 times
Reputation: 1989
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Why only us? It happened by Chance?



Seriously, what’s stopping the animals to start thinking on a higher level?
Some are here even before us.
There is No goal in evolution other than survival. How useful would it be for a Moose to be as smart as you? Plus we were not the only species to gain higher intelligence although we are the only primate to survive at this higher level.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:07 PM
 
3,371 posts, read 2,160,276 times
Reputation: 1289
So this is a really interesting post!



If I understand correctly the main thrust of the argument is that mankind must be somehow separate from all other animals (and plants for that matter) because we alone have a sense of morality, a moral agency, the ability to choose right and wrong.






The idea is that animals are simply following their nature, while humans do something more complex. But what is this "more complex" thing we call morality?


First I would ask if anyone can come up with a single actor morality. In a reality in which there is only one living thing, one thing that can make choices, think, or feel, can that one living being do anything immoral? I would argue no. Theft isn't possible, there is no one else to have any rights that can be infringed, no one to lie to. Likewise there can be no "good" action. All choice are simple choices with no moral weight. It is a world where morality is meaningless.



The simplest way to create morality is to have two equal living, thinking beings with will. Now the ideas of theft, generosity, cruelty, kindness, hate, and love make sense. So morality is a social thing, a creation of individuals interacting with each other. Even religion tends to look at it this way, it is just that one of the individuals is always whatever god or karmic balance is posited.







Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Yet there is one thing I see in common here. No one looks at those actions and says, wow those creatures sure are immoral. Atheists want me to believe that we are nothing more than another creation, born out of time and chance. We are just another link in evolution, another branch on the giant tree of evolution. And yet if we did any of those things, we would be see as evil, grossly immoral and cruel. So the atheist tries to convince me that I am an animal because we share so many similarities with other species and they point to things like how dogs express real human emotions. We are animals because animals are like us.
This doesn't speak to animal morality, because all of this is true of humans as well. We make moral judgments about the actions when performed by other humans because human beings are a part of our moral calculus. Because they are fundamentally like us we deem them to be moral actors, but there is no reason to assume animals are not. However, they may be moral actors in their own framework. In fact a lot of research shows that this is true, especially the more social a species is. There are rules for behavior, concepts of ownership, fairness, and appropriateness within a group of chimps or a pack of dogs. And an individual who blatantly and repeatedly violates these norms, these rules, these "moral values" is disciplined, shunned, or even killed. Fundamentally not much different than our society...



Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
You can't have it both ways. If we are animals then we should be acting like animals. Behaving according to our preprogrammed nature and instinct, not conflicted in areas of morality.
I would argue that to assume that animals behave in a "preprogrammed" way and are incapable of the kind of moral choices we are is at best unsupported by the data, and may have strong evidence against it. If one leaves the assumption that we are the only moral actor in the world behind, and examines animal behavior, there is a lot that doesn't seem so foreign...


-NoCapo
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:15 PM
 
3,240 posts, read 2,310,648 times
Reputation: 493
Evidence for altruism:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhowJygx86U
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