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Old 11-21-2018, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,564 posts, read 2,642,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I am not so sure. Hippos have been known to kill deer because they were in the hippo's area. And were the hippos helping the animals, or just attacking crocodiles?
Hippo have been known to actually take the injured antelope out of the water to the bank and try to stand them up. They are also the most dangerous African animal, being responsible for the most human deaths. Do not get between a cow and her calf or a bull and his water hole or just do not anger them in any way.

The lion protecting the young wildebeest is just it's mothering instinct kicking in, just as what happens with us.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:18 AM
 
7,665 posts, read 4,562,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Dolphins have larger brains than humans yet they can't even grasp simple concepts like numbers. Dolphins are still wild animals:




https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-dolphins-kill-people


So if intelligence is a factor on what gives us a moral compass then you would have to state that dolphins are immoral creatures. IF they are just animals behaving like animals then you can't claim that humans act immoral. We act like humans. Problem with that position is no two humans act exactly the same. You can't say that about any other animal species.

So it's either admit that humans are not animals or that humans are not immoral since other animals are not seen as being immoral. If you try to hold both positions that we are animals yet uniquely behave according to a code of morality then that makes you a mass murderer if you ever stomp on bugs.
Moral/immoral has no universal definition. I would say that some people are moral and others are not. I am certain my definition of moral is vastly different from yours.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Florida
18,461 posts, read 18,761,897 times
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Many animals have learned to understand our language but other than people Dian Fossey, we haven't learned theirs.
Makes you wonder who's more intelligent.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:40 AM
Status: "Why do all the good threads get closed down?" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Missouri, USA
3,994 posts, read 2,772,281 times
Reputation: 1858
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But we are talking about morality. Don’t we?

Hold on !!
Are you saying many animals that have learned to work together for long term survival have develop morality? Which animals you are talking about? Hyenas? Deer? Geese? Monkeys? Lions? Wildebeest?

Seriously. I would like to know what kind of morals have these animals developed just because they have learned to live and work together within their species for long term survival?
*Awhile ago I watched a neat video about African wild dogs. They don't fight with each other over their food because they don't have time. Lions and hyenas tend to drive them away from their kills quickly, so they all work together to gobble up as much of their kill as possible, as quickly as possible, then then run back to their den and regurgitate their meal for their pups. All the wild dogs in the pack feed all the pups. All the dogs work together to support each other and each other's pups, and hunt, because they wouldn't be able to compete with the stronger lions and hyenas otherwise. Human ancestors have long required similar kinds of cooperation to survive. We're not much of a match for a lion or hyena on our own either, at least not without our weapons, which our ancestors didn't always have.

*I saw another video in which a guy who studies some species of whales or other mentioned that groups of female whales live together for extremely long periods of time. The sounds they use for echo location and to communicate with can be extremely loud, and if they were to be careless enough to inadvertently aim a sonar blast in the direction of one of their fellow whales, that could cause deafness...so that's something they must avoid doing. He thought that was a kind of an ethical code of behavior for whales.

*I saw another video about monkey cultures. Some of the monkeys played this game where they stuck their fingers in each other's mouths. Their fellow monkeys would bite down, but not hard enough to break the skin. The monkeys who put their fingers in their fellow monkeys' mouths would then play a game where they tried to pull their fingers out. After they'd get them out, they'd often continue the game by putting another finger back into their fellow monkey's mouth and try to pull it out again. Those monkeys had strong enough jaws that they could bite off a finger of one of their fellow monkeys, but in those games, they didn't. That might be called an ethical code of behavior for the monkeys. They trusted each other enough to play the game, and they maintained that trust by not biting down too hard on each other's fingers. On either one, or a small number of occasions, I forget which, monkeys played another version of the above trust-based game where instead of sticking their fingers in each other's mouths, they very carefully poked each other in each other's eyes, carefully enough not to cause harm. They trusted each other enough to do this, and they maintained that level of trust by being careful about it.

So, amongst social species, there can be some very trusting, cooperative agreements when it serves a purpose for the group.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,794 posts, read 475,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
Hippo have been known to actually take the injured antelope out of the water to the bank and try to stand them up. They are also the most dangerous African animal, being responsible for the most human deaths. Do not get between a cow and her calf or a bull and his water hole or just do not anger them in any way.

The lion protecting the young wildebeest is just it's mothering instinct kicking in, just as what happens with us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2XnQ4HKSVc
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:37 PM
 
7,864 posts, read 3,485,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
They can count. They understand what we say, we can not understand what they say. They know if a human is being honest, or is falling in a swimming pool to try and get a film of the dolphin helping him.


Your assertion is question begging. Dolphins also have their own moral code.


Yes, we also act like the animals we are. We act like human animals.


Apart from ALL the animals that do act differently. From monkey, dolphins, cats, dogs.


I have heard of building your house on sand, but piling some wood on a farm manure pit and calling it an institute of learning?
Could you at least once base your arguments on actual facts instead of invention?
Could you at least back up your posts with evidence rather than make empty assertions? I know your type just could never handle admitting that I'm right so you resort to thinly veiled statements suggesting that I am stupid.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:35 PM
 
10,850 posts, read 4,249,630 times
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there is no reason to assume that animals, well actually humans, do not have some of the same emotions. We, unlike animals, have the ability not to be our next thought. well, assuming the mind/body/brain is all wired up correctly. And that is not the case in a large portion of the population.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:45 PM
 
5,332 posts, read 2,033,764 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Could you at least back up your posts with evidence rather than make empty assertions? I know your type just could never handle admitting that I'm right so you resort to thinly veiled statements suggesting that I am stupid.

What evidence do you want Jeff. When posters have in the past recommended a particular book that will explain things to you have you ever gone and read that book?

Bird Brain by Candice Savage, a book for laypeople written by a non scientists who is a well published author of non fiction, and a nice lady I might add having met her a couple of tomes.

A German scientist by last name Konrad an animal behavior researcher

Same with books by Bernd Heinrich. I only have his Mind of the Raven and Ravens in the Winter as bird intelligence has been an interest of mine.

Most books by Dr Stanley Coran, I think he is a human psychologists and dog trainer who mixes his professional knowledge with his observations and observations and has written popular books (meaning non technical) ones such as intelligence of dogs and how dogs think.

Books by Jane Goodall or others who have worked with non human primates.

Basic books on animal behaviour and I am sure that I can fine tens of thousands of Web sites discussing or explaining animal behaviour however the chances of you going to some of these sites and reading them is close to nil.

As far as your claim that all animals of a species act the same I will provide you a personal example that speaks against that. We used to have two dogs of the same breed, a couple of months different in age and pedigrees that had many common ancestors. The first time we left them with a friend for the weekend, also a dog owner, we had tale to him on the phone and he told me what our dogs got upto. I was able to tell him over the phone which of the dogs had done what and he confirmed all. If all dogs acted the same how would I be able to know which did what?

Now as far as empty assertions, where is any evidence of any of your claims in your opening posts. Do you have any evidence to provide that all animals act the same, that they do not think about what they do, that they have no morality?

The books I suggested all have peer reviewed sources for their content. Where is your peer reviewed book or article showing that atheists consider fellow humans or other animals as pieces of meat or that we have no morality?

As far as your intelligence, the one thing much worse than being stupid is when an intelligent person refuses to expand their mind by not doing any reading up on things that oppose their world view but still insist on making empty unsupported assertions based simply on their own perceived view of what the think about a subject. Jeff I think, and many others do as well, that you are not of the former but certainly of the latter.
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,357 posts, read 9,114,818 times
Reputation: 18677
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Could you at least back up your posts with evidence rather than make empty assertions? I know your type just could never handle admitting that I'm right so you resort to thinly veiled statements suggesting that I am stupid.
Excuse me. But many of your posts in this forum, and in this very thread, state opinions and are not "backed up".
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Old 11-21-2018, 03:09 PM
Status: "Independent/free" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Land of the Caddo and Tonkawa
4,031 posts, read 1,566,950 times
Reputation: 5763
Morality, like laws, provide useful boundaries that help us all to get along. Without them, we'd be colliding and crossing into each other's boundaries more, to our disadvantage.

Animals don't have the same issues - and don't exist in a technological, monetary, legal, etc. world - so it's dumb to compare ourselves to them in this regard.
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