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I do find such misplaced beliefs and misunderstandings of God tragic and definitely odd, but I blame the organized religions for it.
All of Christianity is an organized religion, I am not sure why Evangelicals always state that they are not.
Even John Chau was representing some sort of church, when he went to North Sentinel Island.
Deal. Yes, BUT we will reap whatever we sow which is why following His instructions to love God and each other every day and repent when we don't is important. If we truly do that, we cannot harm anyone else in any way.
The important part, Thrill, is believing His "state of mind" is the one we should seek to attain to live life to the fullest as opposed to seeking to maximize our physical and worldly well-being. Jesus as a HUMAN, achieved what all humans are supposed to achieve and in that sense, He removed any eternal consequence from our species' failures.
What more do you think He owes us? After all, WE have Dominion on the earth and are responsible for all things within our power. The rest we are to overcome and endure. These expectations that you have for God are the result of the religious leadership (MIS-leadership) you have received from your religion. I was spared that encumbrance but it has become a major stumbling block for you. God is Spirit (think consciousness) and we are His offspring reproducing His consciousness.
His concern, therefore, is with our consciousness (state of mind) and NOT our physical or worldly existence. We, OTOH, are almost exclusively focused on our physical survival and well-being which distracts us from creating a resonant state of mind with God. That is the function of prayer and worship - to attain a resonant state of mind. Jesus IS available to assist us in that effort (what you disparagingly call the "whisperings in our mind.")
Bottom line: You are looking for God in all the wrong places, Thrill. You dismiss the times you did hear from Him, As you said: "I recall vague feelings of feeling good after praying a few times." I do find such misplaced beliefs and misunderstandings of God tragic and definitely odd, but I blame the organized religions for it.
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Originally Posted by monumentus
I do not think we should "just believe" anyone. Ever. That is a potentially very harmful and dangerous approach to take in many situations. Trust has to be earned and if I afford someone belief - especially belief without evidence of the specific claim they are making - then there is some background reasons for why I would do that.
I have read the tales of Jesus quite a few times and I can not find a single action he is likely to have actually made - that any of us here are precluded from doing. He preached a bit. Made some friends. And died for what he believed in. Any one of us could do any of those things. And many people - both people with and without any religious faith at all - do it all the time.
So no do not buy the idea that this character did anything none us could do. Perhaps if you could be more specific.
Further nothing you espouse off the back of your idolization of the individual requires that idol at all. For example you go on to write about loving each other every day and engaging in some level of repentance when we fail to attain that ideal. That is great stuff of course! Absolutely no requirement or even advantage for a god, a Jesus, or belief or subscription to either of them to do it however. In fact espousing that ideal packaged in evidence devoid nonsense is likely to harm the agenda - when it functions perfectly well without that packaging.
But there is no evidence that there are any "eternal consequences" so at best your Jesus character is someone who is engaged in a common marketing practice of creating the disease while creating the cure. As people who offer "detox" and "cleansing" services - this is indeed a successful business model both then and now. Curing ailments and conditions that do not actually exist is a profitable market and anyone including Jesus who buys into it is likely onto a commercial winner.
But outside successful business models I am not seeing much of any actual utility here. Certainly nothing that a random missionary should be invading sovereign lands to force upon the locals at the possible expense of the one and only lives we have _any_ evidence they will ever actually have. Their killing of him - contrary to some views expressed on this thread - was entirely justified and in no way "murder".
Well, notwithstanding what the Bible says about "There are none good" I consider myself a good person so I don't intend to reap anything but good things in whatever afterlife there is. As to repentance I can't repent anything if I don't believe I've done anything deserving of any sort of punishment. As to living life to its fullest I'm all for that so no arguments there. Again, I don't believe a Jesus son of God died for our sins ever existed so I cannot change that. I believe it's possible an ordinary man who might have been named Yeshua ben something lived at some point upon which all this legend and myth grew up around--I mean that's just the way it was happening back then with poor communications and no way to verify all the stories floating around so I take nothing from the gospels or the New Testament as "gospel".
I think if this salvation is a purely free gift, then fine I'll take it like I'd take some lottery winnings offered me for free, but I won't change any patterns of living in order to obtain it. You know, if it's free then it's free no strings attached.
But I have to say I side with monumentus on a lot of this. I think it's foolish to take as God-inspired what words were put into Jesus' mouth by writers we don't even know their names who were writing all this stuff 50-100 years after this Yeshua ben somebody allegedly lived. I've been saying lately that it's God's fault we don't have concrete evidence of this Jesus from secular historians. If God really intended for us to believe in Jesus He did a horrible job of leaving credible documentation of him. I mean He's God--He could have left video for C'sS. It's all too vague and about as solid as quicksand. And I think the analogy to quicksand is a good one since millions of people sucked down into this Christianity maelstrom without even knowing it until it's too late, like I did. But thank you, Mystic. I'll always say among the Christians around here you are the best. Too bad all of them don't have your integrity.
Well, notwithstanding what the Bible says about "There are none good" I consider myself a good person so I don't intend to reap anything but good things in whatever afterlife there is. As to repentance, I can't repent anything if I don't believe I've done anything deserving of any sort of punishment.
There is no punishment, Thrill, just remorse, regret, and/or any unresolvable guilt over unremediable hurt or genuine irreversible harm your willful actions may have wreaked upon others. If none of that applies to you, you are fortunate. If every one of your willful actions has been done with consideration for the well-being of everyone affected, you are a genuinely unique individual.
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As to living life to its fullest, I'm all for that so no arguments there. Again, I don't believe a Jesus son of God died for our sins ever existed so I cannot change that. I believe it's possible an ordinary man who might have been named Yeshua ben something lived at some point upon which all this legend and myth grew up around--I mean that's just the way it was happening back then with poor communications and no way to verify all the stories floating around so I take nothing from the gospels or the New Testament as "gospel".
This is the result of the typical and generally ubiquitous worldly or carnal focus on the content of human consciousness. You demand that any evidence of God's influence on human consciousness be reflected in the accuracy of the worldly or carnal content which has zip to do with the spiritual content and impact that is God's concern. You take no significance from the widespread acceptance and impact of these myths and legends on human society and the concept of spirituality itself. But they are the primary focus for spiritual development and they chronicle our spiritual evolution as a species. The virtual ubiquity of spiritual concern across millennia, eras, generations and cultures speaks to God's influence. Historicity is irrelevant.
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I think if this salvation is a purely free gift, then fine I'll take it like I'd take some lottery winnings offered me for free, but I won't change any patterns of living in order to obtain it. You know, if it's free then it's free no strings attached.
There never were any strings attached. It is not about rewards or lotteries. It is about fulfilling our species' collective purpose in existing. The problem never has been that we are incapable of doing what Jesus achieved but that we were not evolved enough spiritually to even try. In theory, we are all capable, but in practice, none of us came close. The issue was that at least ONE of us had to achieve perfect resonance (Identity) in their human consciousness with the consciousness of God. Some of us chronicled in the spiritual fossil record came close, but only Jesus achieved it rendering all the collective human consciousness in resonance with God despite our individual imperfections.
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But I have to say I side with monumentus on a lot of this. I think it's foolish to take as God-inspired what words were put into Jesus' mouth by writers we don't even know their names who were writing all this stuff 50-100 years after this Yeshua ben somebody allegedly lived. I've been saying lately that it's God's fault we don't have concrete evidence of this Jesus from secular historians. If God really intended for us to believe in Jesus He did a horrible job of leaving credible documentation of him. I mean He's God--He could have left video for C'sS. It's all too vague and about as solid as quicksand. And I think the analogy to quicksand is a good one since millions of people sucked down into this Christianity maelstrom without even knowing it until it's too late, like I did. But thank you, Mystic. I'll always say among the Christians around here you are the best. Too bad all of them don't have your integrity.
Thank you for the kind words, Thrill. I have been given excellent advice to put monumentus on ignore so the only time I see his posts are when someone quotes him as you did. If you resonate with his views so be it. God Bless, my friend.
I'm coming to the belief that Jesus may play a very important part in the psychological health of many people who would otherwise be ax-murderers and rapists and such. Certainly Jesus gave John Chau a reason for living.
Someone in here mentioned using Jesus as an opiate and I think this is very true. I was watching a docu on Netflicks entitled, "Good People Go To Hell, Saved People Go To Heaven" and while the bulk of the message was trash there were a few stories of how coming to Jesus saved some people from drugs, prostitution and suicide. As such I came to realize the "Jazus, Jazus--praise be Jazus" crutch can actually benefit those who are too weak of mind to face the realities of this ugly world. Thus it doesn't matter that Jesus is a fiction. If Jesus keeps them from going over the edge then more power to whatever crutch a person needs besides harmful things like dope and alcohol to stop that from happening.
So "Praise be to Jazus! He saved me from H. Now I live for him." is fine. I will definitely tone down my rhetoric.
I'm coming to the belief that Jesus may play a very important part in the psychological health of many people who would otherwise be ax-murderers and rapists and such. Certainly Jesus gave John Chau a reason for living.
Someone in here mentioned using Jesus as an opiate and I think this is very true. I was watching a docu on Netflicks entitled, "Good People Go To Hell, Saved People Go To Heaven" and while the bulk of the message was trash there were a few stories of how coming to Jesus saved some people from drugs, prostitution and suicide. As such I came to realize the "Jazus, Jazus--praise be Jazus" crutch can actually benefit those who are too weak of mind to face the realities of this ugly world. Thus it doesn't matter that Jesus is a fiction. If Jesus keeps them from going over the edge then more power to whatever crutch a person needs besides harmful things like dope and alcohol to stop that from happening.
So "Praise be to Jazus! He saved me from H. Now I live for him." is fine. I will definitely tone down my rhetoric.
or understand what humans are. I think you have many great points but bull horning logic in a pen of chimps won't change chimps from being chimps. if anything, they throw their poop at you. It really doesn't matter what a chimps perspective on a statement of belief about god. they don't care. we have to get them moving forward and keep them from hurting themselves and others. What I believe has nothing to do with it sometimes.
But, some of those chimps are "awake". how do we not blow them away, or more importantly, "scare them away"? which is distinctly different than the "I won't be silenced". as soon as it becomes about "I am not going to be silenced" its over. not using a bull horn and not being silenced are two different things.
IMO we should talk about how the universe works, openly and honestly, and let beliefs based on that form themselves. "beliefs" based on science tend to self correct themselves when new information is found. beliefs based on "atheist/theist perspectives" tend to stagnate and injure people around them.
. If Jesus keeps them from going over the edge then more power to whatever crutch a person needs besides harmful things like dope and alcohol to stop that from happening.
.
It's just too bad to automatically pass that on when raising children . when, instead...…..
"I believe that children are our future;
Teach them well and let them lead the way.
Show them all the beauty they possess inside.
Give them a sense of pride, to make it easier;
Let the children's laughter remind us how we use to be.
Everybody's searching for a hero; ………………... (Need that be Jesus?)
People need someone to look up to.
I never found anyone who fulfilled my need.
A lonely place to be, and so I learned to depend on me.
I decided long ago never to walk in anyone's shadow.
If I fail, if I succeed, at least I lived as I believe.
No matter what they take from me,
They can't take away my dignity."
There is no punishment, Thrill, just remorse, regret, and/or any unresolvable guilt over unremediable hurt or genuine irreversible harm your willful actions may have wreaked upon others. If none of that applies to you, you are fortunate. If every one of your willful actions has been done with consideration for the well-being of everyone affected, you are a genuinely unique individual. This is the result of the typical and generally ubiquitous worldly or carnal focus on the content of human consciousness. You demand that any evidence of God's influence on human consciousness be reflected in the accuracy of the worldly or carnal content which has zip to do with the spiritual content and impact that is God's concern. You take no significance from the widespread acceptance and impact of these myths and legends on human society and the concept of spirituality itself. But they are the primary focus for spiritual development and they chronicle our spiritual evolution as a species. The virtual ubiquity of spiritual concern across millennia, eras, generations and cultures speaks to God's influence. Historicity is irrelevant. There never were any strings attached. It is not about rewards or lotteries. It is about fulfilling our species' collective purpose in existing. The problem never has been that we are incapable of doing what Jesus achieved but that we were not evolved enough spiritually to even try. In theory, we are all capable, but in practice, none of us came close. The issue was that at least ONE of us had to achieve perfect resonance (Identity) in their human consciousness with the consciousness of God. Some of us chronicled in the spiritual fossil record came close, but only Jesus achieved it rendering all the collective human consciousness in resonance with God despite our individual imperfections. Thank you for the kind words, Thrill. I have been given excellent advice to put monumentus on ignore so the only time I see his posts are when someone quotes him as you did. If you resonate with his views so be it. God Bless, my friend.
you put momentous on ignore? His "atheist perspective" stuff is easy smushed by 'content", but over all his stuff is very good. IMO. But all perspectives are smushed by content when they are not content driven. Heck, even some of mine.
I don't know about "spiritual growth". people are people and will always be people. religions come and go but "awake" is "awake". we just have more data today than the "awake" had back then..
It's just too bad to automatically pass that on when raising children . when, instead...…..
[i]"I believe that children are our future;
Teach them well and let them lead the way.
Show them all the beauty they possess inside.
Give them a sense of pride, to make it easier;
Let the children's laughter remind us how we use to be.
]
that's it. I blame parents far more than religion. And some can't blame the people they love so they blame somebody else, or something else.
i teach my children "you will know when you have to praise the person you are following." Lennin, stalin, hilter, and, err, that J word? My guess is that jesus would have been totally against himself being treated as a god.
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