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To answer the question, it wouldn't take too much to make me a believer.
Just one face to face encounter with a bona fide miracle (that is a scientifically impossible event that I cannot believe to be in any way possible - preferably one that the Bible specifically points out in a prophecy).
But religious people say I have seen many already, and only my closed mind keeps me from seeing things like a baby, a flower, or a spontaneous healing as a miracle sent from God.
So far, I disagree.
Good on you for your catch, b. frank. I have a feeling I wouldn't have wanted you for my grammar/English teacher in any portion of my education.
Couple of thoughts/questions:
1. Can you give me an example of a prophecy from scripture that, if fulfilled, would help you believe?
and
2. While I can see your argument regarding a baby and a flower, are you saying that even if you saw a spontaneous healing, you'd still want proof of some sort that it was of God?
1. Can you give me an example of a prophecy from scripture that, if fulfilled, would help you believe?
and
2. While I can see your argument regarding a baby and a flower, are you saying that even if you saw a spontaneous healing, you'd still want proof of some sort that it was of God?
Hmm..this is a little bit scary because it feels like, whatever I say, somebody will be able to provide me with "evidence", but I'll try.
1) I'm not sure, but it would have to be something completely unearthly and specific to the Bible. And, even then, it would be tough because even if I did believe in the Bible, I would not be a "literalist" - I mean, how do you know when a whole bunch of frogs is enough to be considered a "plague"?
2) I don't believe the cause of a spontaneous healing can ever be proven so this is another tough one. Obviously, sick people get well even when they aren't expected to. There would have to be something special about the healing to make me consider that God is responsible. Since I am a non-believer, I don't know what would make me consider that - the "special" thing would have to happen first.
In conclusion, I'll say this: ever since I gave up my God-belief, I have always said (to myself) that my non-belief isn't something I will hold onto if anything makes me feel otherwise. All religious people talk about very personal, spiritual things going on with them that cause them to believe. I'm open to that; it just doesn't happen to me. I can't believe what I don't believe.
1. Can you give me an example of a prophecy from scripture that, if fulfilled, would help you believe?
and
2. While I can see your argument regarding a baby and a flower, are you saying that even if you saw a spontaneous healing, you'd still want proof of some sort that it was of God?
1. The bible is vague, using flowery language, metaphors, and various other non-specific "prophecies". How are biblical prophecies worded? Because of this the number of interpretations is too much to count. I would like to read a prophecy that was very specific, without leaving any doubt. Also to name names. Example: If the prophecy is that the tribes of Israel are coming to their homeland. I'd like a prophecy stating the very exact location of that homeland, the names of the bordering nations, names of the bodies of water, etc.
How about Lake Michigan being parted so that people can drive from Green Bay, Wisconsin, to Muskegon, Michigan?
2. Oral Roberts has been "healing" people for decades. I doubt the authenticity of any of his "miracles".
Humans use less than 20% of their brains. No one has yet discovered what capabilities the remaining 80% has. Is it possible that humans have the ability to repair themselves?
Now since I've greatly contributed to the thread going off-topic, I thought I might try and get it back around.
So, here's (above) the OP and a follow-up question from me that I 'think' fits here:
For current non-believers and 'fence sitters', what would it take for you to say "Ok, that's about all I need. I believe"?
Would it be a face to face physical encounter and/or miracle?
One too many 'coincidences'?
Just curious.....
(PS I think I'm going to start including at least one mispelled word in each post, did you see it in this one?)
Hmmmm.... It's interesting... Real quick, before I take the plunge on this question are you referring to believing in the Christian God or just that there is some sort of supernatural omnipotence out there?? That's important because the two are wholly different to me.
1. In order for me to believe that there is some sort of watching "omnipotence" I'd have to see organized complexity spontaneously arise on more than one occassions. In other words, when "poofing" starts happening I'll begin to question my non-belief. For example: Amputees growing back limbs, instantaneous appearances of animals and plants, a mountain in my backyard (Mississippi is rather flat), etc... And the thing is... They better not be explainable with science. A mountain could form in my backyard since I do live close to a fault line. I suppose the two plates could collide and form a mountain. That's not the same thing as a mountain just popping up in my backyard. I want miraculous. I don't want vagueries and things that don't take statistical probability into account. I want the unhappenable to happen.
2. For me to believe in the Christian God, this would take even more. I guess you could say I really don't believe in God. But, if there were an extended form of a negative, I guess you could say I REALLY REALLY DON'T believe in the Christian God. Basically, I'd need all of the above, but I'd need Jesus or Yahweh to come down here and explain to me their logic because I think it's lacking.
All in all, for me to believe in some sort of omnipotence I'm going to need organized complexity that spontaneously arises. For me to believe in the Christian God.... Sorry, it's going to take a lot more and even if I believed in him I don't think I'd respect him. I really think he's a pretty vile God at times.
I guess if all the Christians suddenly got raptured and died all at once, I might start to wonder what was happening. But then this seemed like the most convincing argument of all to not believe in it, as I'd much rather be among the living.
I'm with Troop - gotta be a lot of weird stuff that violates the laws of physics, not just someone's stories of which all the evidence mysteriously and conveniently disappears.
Hmmmm.... It's interesting... Real quick, before I take the plunge on this question are you referring to believing in the Christian God or just that there is some sort of supernatural omnipotence out there?? That's important because the two are wholly different to me.
1. In order for me to believe that there is some sort of watching "omnipotence" I'd have to see organized complexity spontaneously arise on more than one occassions. In other words, when "poofing" starts happening I'll begin to question my non-belief. For example: Amputees growing back limbs, instantaneous appearances of animals and plants, a mountain in my backyard (Mississippi is rather flat), etc... And the thing is... They better not be explainable with science. A mountain could form in my backyard since I do live close to a fault line. I suppose the two plates could collide and form a mountain. That's not the same thing as a mountain just popping up in my backyard. I want miraculous. I don't want vagueries and things that don't take statistical probability into account. I want the unhappenable to happen.
2. For me to believe in the Christian God, this would take even more. I guess you could say I really don't believe in God. But, if there were an extended form of a negative, I guess you could say I REALLY REALLY DON'T believe in the Christian God. Basically, I'd need all of the above, but I'd need Jesus or Yahweh to come down here and explain to me their logic because I think it's lacking.
All in all, for me to believe in some sort of omnipotence I'm going to need organized complexity that spontaneously arises. For me to believe in the Christian God.... Sorry, it's going to take a lot more and even if I believed in him I don't think I'd respect him. I really think he's a pretty vile God at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesaje
I guess if all the Christians suddenly got raptured and died all at once, I might start to wonder what was happening. But then this seemed like the most convincing argument of all to not believe in it, as I'd much rather be among the living.
I'm with Troop - gotta be a lot of weird stuff that violates the laws of physics, not just someone's stories of which all the evidence mysteriously and conveniently disappears.
So is it fair to say you'd both believe as long as faith wasn't involved?
You'd have no problem conceding the existence of God as long as faith plays no role in the process?
So is it fair to say you'd both believe as long as faith wasn't involved?
You'd have no problem conceding the existence of God as long as faith plays no role in the process?
Not necessarily Alpha. Keep in mind, I'm talking about a God here. I'm talking about something that can allegedly do anything. I don't think it's a far cry for me to ask to see a leg regrow from an amputee. I mean, this IS a God we're talking about right? I really don't think I'm asking for much. I'd just like to see some of our wounded soldiers who lost limbs in wars regrow a leg or an arm. At that point, I may consider having enough faith to believe that some sort of divinity exists. Yet, I still wouldn't be convinced that it was a particular deity. For all I know, it really could be Zeus that was doing it. So, in order for me to believe that there is a God, and that God is the Christian one, I'm going to not only need some spontaneous limb growth but I'm going to need it done in some form or fashion that directly implicates a particular deity. I really don't see why that's so much to ask for and I mean that in all sincerity. No, I'm not using wounded soldiers as a mockery of God, but I'm rather pointing out how simple it would be for an all-powerful being to present me with evidence of its' existence. Especially if we're to consider this God a loving one. It doesn't have to be every wounded soldier (although that'd be nice) but I'd like to hear about one or two who just woke up with a fully functional leg or arm one day.
So is it fair to say you'd both believe as long as faith wasn't involved?
You'd have no problem conceding the existence of God as long as faith plays no role in the process?
That depends on what is defined as a god. Faith is a problem for me. I see it as no different than hoping and wishing. Even a regrowing of a limb wouldn't be enuf if that was done by a new medical technique. There would have to be real evidence of magic and omnipotence for me to consider something a god. And even then, if it is just an advanced science, it still isn't a god. To an isolated aborigine who never saw any modern technology, any of us could easily seem like a god. That still doesn't make us one. We just have better technology and education. The Levantine god constructs are just too vicious and petty for me to ever respect as a god, even if all that nonsense and threats were actually real.
I think one of the greatest things about our species is our ability to reason. Anything that cuts that off in an effort for other people to exert their dominance over me is something I will reject. I will also reject any behavior that puts me in the position of stopping anyone else's ability to reason so that I may have power over them. This is at its heart is what I see as so damaging to our species and freedoms with the whole religion/faith construct. It is, for the most part, a power structure. Where people's theologies do not interfere with individual reasoning and doesn't give certain people psychological power over others, I don't see it as much of a problem and it may give some emotional sustenance to people who need that.
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But then this seemed like the most convincing argument of all to not believe in it, as I'd much rather be among the living.
