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Old 12-05-2018, 10:39 PM
 
2,781 posts, read 1,427,974 times
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There are 3 possible positions:

1) There exists a magical being called "God" that is the source of all morality and law.
2) There is no "God" therefore there is no morality or law and one is free to do anything one wants.
3) Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.

A moral person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego.
A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or any one group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

Civilization is my country. Objectivity is my religion

 
Old 12-06-2018, 05:08 AM
 
9,148 posts, read 12,097,107 times
Reputation: 3288
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
There are 3 possible positions:

1) There exists a magical being called "God" that is the source of all morality and law.
2) There is no "God" therefore there is no morality or law and one is free to do anything one wants.
3) Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.

A moral person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego.
A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or any one group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

Civilization is my country. Objectivity is my religion
What does any of this have to do with God destroying humanity in a flood? I ask because you identify as a "Noahide Rationalist".
 
Old 12-06-2018, 07:10 AM
 
3,369 posts, read 2,342,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
What does any of this have to do with God destroying humanity in a flood? I ask because you identify as a "Noahide Rationalist".
Follow the 'breadcrumbs'....the flood was due to their lack of morality.
 
Old 12-06-2018, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,266 posts, read 9,376,235 times
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MORALITY SIMPLIFIED
Morality is simple - it is based on survival (the dead have no morality) - and it depends on which law you follow. There are two sets of laws:
• 1. Law of love, and
• 2. Law of the jungle.

● Under the law of love, harmless activity in support of one's "right to life" is moral / good. Harmful action is "bad". Self sacrifice is the “highest good.”
● Under the law of the jungle, predators are "good", and prey are "good to eat". Prey who fight back are "bad" - at least the predators think so. Sacrificing others for one’s own gain is the rule, not the exception.

Most civilized people assume that the law of love (harmless action) is moral. And defending one's person, liberty and property from predation is what mutual defense of rights (i.e. government) is all about.

So taking the property of another for one's own right to life is immoral, but lawful under the law of the jungle.

Choose your law and accept the consequences.

On the other hand, try to be the kind of person you’d prefer to spend eternity with, rather than avoid. Either way, you make your own heaven or hell. And if there is a sovereign of the universe, in that realm of timeless eternal thought, your own intrinsic nature will determine if you can associate with or be denied access to that being. Since like attracts like, being dissimilar will exile one or the other.
 
Old 12-09-2018, 11:36 PM
 
2,781 posts, read 1,427,974 times
Reputation: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
There are 3 possible positions:

1) There exists a magical being called "God" that is the source of all morality and law.
2) There is no "God" therefore there is no morality or law and one is free to do anything one wants.
3) Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.

A moral person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego.
A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or any one group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

Civilization is my country. Objectivity is my religion
The question we are constantly being asked on this forum is "Does god (defined as the source of all morality) exist?" Implying that if god exists then morality exists and if god does not exist then morality does not exist.

The question cannot be answered with either a yes or a no. The answer to the question is that its the wrong question to ask because the source of all morality is not god. Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 12:04 AM
 
3,683 posts, read 1,346,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
The question we are constantly being asked on this forum is "Does god (defined as the source of all morality) exist?" Implying that if god exists then morality exists and if god does not exist then morality does not exist.

The question cannot be answered with either a yes or a no. The answer to the question is that its the wrong question to ask because the source of all morality is not god. Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.
But if there is a God (presumably), then he is the creator of all and everything - including morality AND immorality. No?

And if there is no God then morality is subjective, and much more diverse having lot more shades of gray depending on which social environment you are in.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 02:37 AM
 
35,669 posts, read 9,391,182 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But if there is a God (presumably), then he is the creator of all and everything - including morality AND immorality. No?

And if there is no God then morality is subjective, and much more diverse having lot more shades of gray depending on which social environment you are in.

Correct. And Gramp's post above is spot -on. It may be on the face of it unsatisfactory that Morality (and the Laws based on it) are "subjective" and that it is much better that Absolute Morality is handed down from on high. But aside from humans (in the absence of a god and an absolute morality just having to do the best they can) i relative morality is actually better for us as it can have morality and law change as society and human ethics change. Hopefully for the better.

We already see the situation where so many of the Biblical rules have had to be abandoned and regarded just the opinions of men (like slavery and more recently the inferior position of women) because society simly would not accept this supposedly divine morality as good to maintain.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 04:29 PM
 
82 posts, read 57,125 times
Reputation: 34
Default Isn't "relative morality" where we are right now?

If you're neighborhood wants you to blow yourself up for god then you do it.

That's "relative morality".
 
Old 12-10-2018, 04:45 PM
 
5,553 posts, read 1,430,680 times
Reputation: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
There are 3 possible positions:

1) There exists a magical being called "God" that is the source of all morality and law.
2) There is no "God" therefore there is no morality or law and one is free to do anything one wants.
3) Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.

A moral person is a person with sufficient objectivity to understand that the universe does not revolve around their ego.
A civilized society is a society whose laws do not revolve around any one person or any one group of people.
The more a society treats everyone as equals the more civilized it is.

Civilization is my country. Objectivity is my religion
Not sure how 2 and 3 are different there.
 
Old 12-11-2018, 12:07 AM
 
2,781 posts, read 1,427,974 times
Reputation: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Not sure how 2 and 3 are different there.
Number 2 says morality doesnt exist
Number 3 says it does
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