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Old 12-09-2018, 09:56 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
11,162 posts, read 7,612,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
Both atheists and theists believe that god is the only possible source of morality. The only difference is whether they believe such a being exists or not
That is not the least bit true. Of course morality exists.
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Old 12-10-2018, 01:52 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
That is not the least bit true. Of course morality exists.
True, in the way all other human mental constructs exist.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:45 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,632 posts, read 4,916,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
absolutely not. but we are talking about religions magical claims, not what happened historically.
Me and Katzpur were talking about the history of the Trinity. Katzpur asked a question, and I answered.

What you and Ozzy were doing is sausage to me.
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:40 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,941,988 times
Reputation: 2226
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Right. No man may die for another's sins. That's why Jesus had to be God.
HE also says that each man will die for his own sin...G-d says that He abhors human sacrifice...

Last edited by Richard1965; 12-10-2018 at 04:53 AM..
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:41 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,941,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Right. No man may die for another's sins. That's why Jesus had to be God.
If Jesus was G-d then he sacrificed nothing for G-d cannot die...
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:56 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,629 posts, read 15,580,631 times
Reputation: 10870
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
There are 3 possible positions regarding morality:

1) Theist position: There exists a magical being called "god" that is the source of all morality and law.
2) Atheist position: There is no "god" therefore there is no morality or law and one is free to do anything one wants.
3) Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.

Both atheists and theists believe that god is the only possible source of morality. The only difference is whether they believe such a being exists or not
This is ridiculous. #1 may be correct. #2 fails as soon as you start to think. Atheists behave morally. Atheists don't believe in God. Therefore, God cannot be the source of their morality.

Then, in the last paragraph, you said both atheists & theists being that God is the source of morality, but that is not possible since atheists do not believe God exists to be the source of anything.
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:13 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,521,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
If Jesus was G-d then he sacrificed nothing for G-d cannot die...
yup, he suffered what? 8 hiurs? I am at 30 years of marriage. he got off easy.

he sacrificed pain as much as I did stepping on a pin in my daughters room. If he was god. and certainty less my daughter did after I pulled that pin out of my big toe.
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:16 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,521,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
There are 3 possible positions regarding morality:

1) Theist position: There exists a magical being called "god" that is the source of all morality and law.
2) Atheist position: There is no "god" therefore there is no morality or law and one is free to do anything one wants.
3) Morality and law are emergent properties that emerge whenever you have large numbers of people interacting with one another.

Both atheists and theists believe that god is the only possible source of morality. The only difference is whether they believe such a being exists or not
#2 is wrong. But I know some people frown on "claiming winning", using a more valid claim against a less valid claim. errr, wait min, that only counts when its not a theists ... so let m continue.

atheist, like myself, say, 'we only have each other so its our responsibility to help each other.
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:27 AM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,521,721 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Me and Katzpur were talking about the history of the Trinity. Katzpur asked a question, and I answered.

What you and Ozzy were doing is sausage to me.
yeah, so attack me because I said something to ozzy? then blame me for something you added into my post? then you run away from the question ...lmao.

talk about sausage.
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:10 AM
 
3,636 posts, read 3,416,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
That is not the least bit true. Of course morality exists.
I think I would be more in line with Granpa's option 3. I think "morality" is just a fancy buzz word we give to something human's do all the time. Which is formalise rules governing their relationships.

If you and I come together in a business agreement or a friendship - there will be certain ground rules in that relationship. Maybe something like "never lie to each other" or "never try to copulate with the romantic partner of the other" and so on.

When enough people come together that same practice is called "morality". It for me is just the same thing on a larger and less time dependant scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Would you trust any religion that said it wasn't the "true" one?
I would be more inclined to if I was religious - yes.

I would be much more inclined to go with a religion claiming -

"We have not got this stuff right - we think we are very much on the right track - but this is a journey and a search and a learning and we have nto got it quite right yet so come along with us on that journey and help us get there!"

- than I would with one saying "Yep - we got this 100% - and we are so right!".

YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
It is entirely possible that no religion (and no Christian individual denomination) is 100% true, but it is mathematically impossible for more than one to be
Well if we are speaking of mathematical probabilities then there is a second way to look at it. Some religious are objectively less likely to be true than others. Why? Because often religion X is just religion Y+. That is to say it is religion Y with some other similarly evidence devoid ideas added.

Take Mormonism for example - in many ways it is just Christianity with some other additions. Objectively therefore it is less likely to be true than some others. People worshipping just the old testament also exist - while others the old and the new. The latter is objectively less likely to be true because it is making all the same claims as the original _plus_ some more.

One of the main differences between Protestant and Catholic religions for example is the consecration of the host. This is an "extra" in one religion that the other does not have. Therefore in relation to that claim the latter religion is more likely to be false than the former.

Basically if one religion makes claims X and Y - and another religion makes claims X Y and Z - then the latter is objectively less likely to be the correct one.

In fact - I forget what they are called - but I think there is a group of people who study all religions and try to factor out the common denominators between them all to form a single "truth" that they feel is therefore objectively the most probable core and everything else is just noise.

Of course none of that is an issue for myself as most of the above religions share a core claim. That a conscious moral agent exists other than humans. And since there is no evidence for that I am not concerned with which religion is the most correct - so much as which religion is not evidenceless nonsense from the outset. So far: None.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
It's funny to outsiders. But I would never laugh at any religious person. For some people it's one of the only positive things in their lives.
I do not see a conflict between those two things. Something can be a source or mirth and a source of import at the same time. My laughing at someone's nonsense - and their finding direction and meaning in that nonsense - are not mutually exclusive. And I see no benefit from acting like they are either.

If for example someone for thinks their underwear is magical in some way or has magical properties - that is great for them. It is unendingly side splitingly hilarious to me.

So win-win really. We are both getting great benefit from their magic underpants! Or haunted bread! Or whatever it is.
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